Yes, I think the whole "series link" business is fairly complicated - there could be problems with repeats, omnibus editions etc. Certainly, although Sky+ uses series links, it's by no means 100% reliable.
It is a very complex system mainly because TIVO hold hundreds of patents which cover most facets of data handling and sorting in regards to recording.
The series link approach is the best SKY have come up with which does not infringe the patents but relies on not only the hardware being 100% reliable but having the totally co-operation of each and every broadcaster not only to support the series links but maintain them on a daily basis.
A DTT PVR style device will have exactly the same problems but with the added complication of the broadcasters on the platform having no financial interest in supporting anything but the basic EPG listings.
You could pattern match certain words, e.g. Friends, but there might be a film called "Band of Friends". It would have to be exactly 'Friends' or nothing. It's all a question of normalised data, i.e. the data is in a format you can use. I'm waiting for a response from Oliver (for 4TV). I suspect that this EPG may not have it - based on the response (earlier in the thread) from Fusion, but that it's something which will come. Basically, get it now and programme in your own recordings, or keep your Tivo/Sky+ - pay the piper - and wait until they've updated the software. That software update could be 2 weeks, 4 months, or longer. Let's see what Oliver has to say.
Also, Thomson have seen the web site (opennet) and my email regarding series link, subtitles, etc. I know that from the web logs. So I may get a response from them soon.
Obviously Sky's system is based on codes as they often change the names of programmes in the EPG - The Simpsons is sometimes just Simpsons and the various incarnations of Star Trek sometimes omit Star Trek from the title.
There was also a problem for a while which resulted in programmes being wrongly listed in the Sky+ planner. If you recorded Coronation Street, for instance, and didn't get round to watching it straight away, if the code was used for, say Big Brother a couple of weeks later, the listing in the planner would change from Coronation Street to Big brother. Dashed infuriating it was too - hasn't happened for a while, though!
You could pattern match certain words, e.g. Friends, but there might be a film called "Band of Friends". It would have to be exactly 'Friends' or nothing. It's all a question of normalised data, i.e. the data is in a format you can use. I'm waiting for a response from Oliver (for 4TV). I suspect that this EPG may not have it - based on the response (earlier in the thread) from Fusion, but that it's something which will come. Basically, get it now and programme in your own recordings, or keep your Tivo/Sky+ - pay the piper - and wait until they've updated the software. That software update could be 2 weeks, 4 months, or longer. Let's see what Oliver has to say.
Also, Thomson have seen the web site (opennet) and my email regarding series link, subtitles, etc. I know that from the web logs. So I may get a response from them soon.
Thomson have seen you website - that's a bit exciting. I wonder what they will think?
The unit does not have a fan so it must be the HDD. I have a 120gb 7200rpm hard disk in my Xbox which I am going to try. I know that some people recommended that you dont have a 7200 disk for heat reasons but thats what everybody said about using it in an Xbox - had no problems for the last 12 months. Will let everyone know if its OK. What I dont want is a noisy disk.
There is a fan ... under the HDD - its a rotary tho.
There is a fan ... under the HDD - its a rotary tho.
James
Interesting
Perhaps the hdd isnt always spinning as suggested ,and its the noise of the fan instead
however , i wonder why cotman didnt detect this when he replaced the hdd
Question for cotman : have you connected the replacement hdd while keeping the existing hdd in place , ala open case arrangement?
Question for cotman : have you connected the replacement hdd while keeping the existing hdd in place , ala open case arrangement?
Yes, I used the open case trick, just in case I decided to take it back due to bugs. There is a little sticker covering one of the screw holes holding the HD frame in place, it looks like one of those "touch me and I break" stickers. I did wonder about the small power feed going under the end of the HD mounting. As I have already said though, I personally think the PSU is the biggest source of heat in the unit.
I have just finished testing the larger hard drive in my box (Hitachi 7K250 160gb ATA100 7200rpm 8mb Cache ).
I managed to record just over 75 hours and having now checked the drives sectors in my PC I can confirm my suspicion that the drive was not completely full. Even though the box did not crash with the drive, it would not let me record past the 128Gb boundary. In fact the box acted like the drive was 128Gb.
My conclusions are that there is no point going past 120Gb as the extra space will be wasted and that the drive gets formatted on the fly with a custom file format so drive swapping should not be a major problem for anyone.
The drives boot sector mentions "AV PES/TS File System". If anybody has any documentation on the layout of this File System I would be very interested.
isnt 75*2gb per hour 150 gb?
seems pretty close to the 160gb mark
perhaps the bitrate was slightly higher for a few programmes
and the drive reserves some space for epg data etc?
its just 75 hours seems very good for 128gb
btw when i looked at one of the thomsons running in dixons , seemed to me the right hand side of the unit for easily the hottest , i.e. the psu side , so i would agree there , however the psu can take it , keeping the hdd cool as possible is the key imo :eek:
Thomson have seen you website - that's a bit exciting. I wonder what they will think?
Well... I hope they'll think that it represents that there are people who are very interested in their product and they should make contact so that we [via this thread - or a new one] can help provide them with early feedback to locate and eliminate any bugs, and add new features that will make this product even better.
I've mentioned recording subtitles, season passes (although that's more up to the EPG than Thomson, in the first instance), and being able to watch a recording from the beginning whilst it is still recording. I've suggested that they read the thread to extract the details of any other bugs. But I think there will be more suggestions for long to come. As an example just yesterday I was looking at the screen shots and noticed that the date of the recording is <day/month/year> - all numeric. On the Tivo it says, for example, "Thu 23/05". I'd like to see that first part as a text day short description as I often don't care what the actual date is (well, 15th is special for me as it's pay day!) but remember that I haven't watched Andromeda from last week. But that's just how I prefer it.
There was also the possible bug for Text not appearing, and the banner header not appearing, or disappearing too quickly.
The drives boot sector mentions "AV PES/TS File System". If anybody has any documentation on the layout of this File System I would be very interested.
isnt 75*2gb per hour 150 gb?
seems pretty close to the 160gb mark
perhaps the bitrate was slightly higher for a few programmes
and the drive reserves some space for epg data etc?
It's imbetween really and depends on how you class a Gb, either 1024 * 1024 * 1024 or 1,000,000,000. The proof came when I examined the sectors on my pc and only found 0's from 128Gb upwards. If I get a chance I'll try a 120Gb in there and see if I get anymore time.
btw when i looked at one of the thomsons running in dixons , seemed to me the right hand side of the unit for easily the hottest , i.e. the psu side , so i would agree there , however the psu can take it , keeping the hdd cool as possible is the key imo :eek:
From the front the PSU is on the left, and its definitely this side that get hottest on my box. I agree that it can take the heat, but it raises the temp in the box which makes it harder for the HD to keep cool.
I have just finished testing the larger hard drive in my box (Hitachi 7K250 160gb ATA100 7200rpm 8mb Cache )
Cotman - did you notice any noise increase with a 7200 drive? I have a 120Gb 7200rpm drive but dont want to use it if it makes the box noticeably noiser.
Cotman - did you notice any noise increase with a 7200 drive? I have a 120Gb 7200rpm drive but dont want to use it if it makes the box noticeably noiser.
It really depends on the drive, mine didn't seem any noisier, but that was with the case open. Also newer 7200 drives are much quieter than older ones and seem to generate less heat as well.
The drives boot sector mentions "AV PES/TS File System". If anybody has any documentation on the layout of this File System I would be very interested.
Despite being very happy with the Thomson box overall, I felt dissapointed by the lack series link but at the very least a lack of weekly/daily programmings - esp as you can set up weekly reminders for other things. I read above in the this thread about the Fusion having a weekly record and watching whilst recording (chase play) and toyed about taking the DHD4000 back and getting a FVRT100. I had asked Fusion a while back about these features and the have just got back to me
Original Message
From: Info [mailto:info@fusiondigitec.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: The Fusion FVRT100
Thanks for your enquiry.
At this time you cannot view the beginning of a recording whilst it is still recording, we are evaluating this for future product releases.
Also with regards to weekly recordings, again at this time the product does not support this feature.
with best regards
So basically, I can't see any better features the Fusion has to offer and also it still is not available. The only difference may be the compression it offers but since you can upgrade this disk to 160/128gig(still in debate it sounds like!) I can't see any reason to go with the Fusion.
Over the weekend I compressed most things into long play and they were fine - I can't actually tell the difference. Already I feel like I would struggle to return to VHS.
The discussion about series link is interesting, since as someone has already pointed out, you can't schedule more than than the space available on the disk there might be a problem with long term scheduling of a series or weekly records.
I ordered the Fusion PVR in November or December from Unbeatable... still waiting of course, so watching this thread with interest. I'm still tempted to hold on to my order, although the Thomson sounds fine. It's just a gut feeling. I would love the DVD writer version of the Fusion but I won't wait THAT long! My analogue signals are terribleand digital is perfect, so I'm really keen to have a Twin Tuner so I can watch one channel while recording another. I opted against the Pace back then because the disk is too small, but had I known how long I'd be waiting, I probably would have just bought it!
Did anyone else see a new Sky+ offer advertised last night? The offer was that for the usual fee of £199 plus £50 for installation you could get a Sky+ box without changing your subscription but no ongoing fee i.e. on the £19.50 a month package, but no extra monthly charges for the Sky+ box. I can't see any reference on the site, but I'm sure that was the offer.
This obviously confuses the issue, because I don''t know whether to stick with Sky (20 hours recording time and ongoing subs and Sky One & Paramount), or just switch to Freeview on the Thomson (40 hours +, no ongoing subs but Sky One or Paramount).
Bugger.
Updated http://opennet.co.uk/thomson.htm web page with details of bugs and a wish list. If anyone has details, bugs, wishes, which I've missed off and would like them added please let me know.
I forgot to ask before, has anyone tried the audio optical outputs yet? I'm curious to see if the Prologic processing seems any better than via the phono outs.
How well does the bookmarking work on the DHD4000? I see that a bookmark is automatically created every 5 mins. Can this be turned off (to avoid spoilers)? Is a bookmark created automatically when stop is pressed? I think that a good resume function is desirable.
Each time you goto the record history it prompts you (if there has been a recording) to generate new thumbnails. If you say no they are not generated and I don't think you can subsequently generate them. However you only can see four at a time, so you only see the first 4 - 20 mins or is it 15...0,5,10,15. Anyway You can't see a lot on them, I haven't felt like they have had the potential to spoil so far esp with films. Sometimes you may get adverts in them which can throw you off track - what's shampoo doing in the making of Kill Bill2....
jswift909 - excellent documentation on the website about the bugs and wishes etc. Thanks for doing that. I will try to send a little more detail about the bugs so maybe speed up Thomsons ability to fix them.
Annoyance
- You cannot schedule more programs than there is space available
Not a bug?
- I have had no problem with the favourites. If you select them from the program guide then as you move between channels PR+ and PR- you only go through your favourites. The same if you bring up the mini channel choice box by pressing OK when watching a channel, only your favourite channels are shown to jump too.
Did anyone find out if you can record more Radio than TV despite the usage space (agreed that time rather than gig would be much better) being shown as the same?
From the front the PSU is on the left, and its definitely this side that get hottest on my box. I agree that it can take the heat, but it raises the temp in the box which makes it harder for the HD to keep cool.
I do apologize , i did actually mean the left as well
1. Video glitches/freeze frames occassionally (this has happened several times to me).
2. If you set a reminder vis the EPG, it pops up an hour too early!
I have had all the other bugs mentioned too.
Regarding the wishlist, I agree with all the info on jswift909's website, plus I would like the "create thumbnail" setting to be part of the permanent set-up - I don't see why the box has to ask this after every recording, and don't see why it can't be a background process. Perhaps there could be an option in the set-up that says "prompt me to create thumbnails after programmes", so people can decide whether they get asked after every recording or not.
I would also be interested to know if the box could be upgraded to handle the Freeview 7 day EPG, as if you loose the 4TV data do you really want to wait until the next day? Also, what happens if 4TV decide to no longer broadcast (unlikely, I grant you).
Regarding resume playback, there is a bit of a trick to get around this. If you stop watching a recording and then watch some live TV for a bit, if you press "0" your recording will resume from where you left off. This is kind of documented in the manual, but not very clearly. This memory of where you were is of course lost if you watch a different recording. Also if you press "OK" during playback you can create a bookmark to your current position. However, I agree that a better way of resuming play is needed - the true mark of a product is that it can be used without major reference to the manual.
Unfortunately the favourites bug is a problem for me.
Oh, and another wish from my wife - ability to jump past adverts in a recording. Possibly this could work on jumping through chunks of 30 secs, or jump to the next freeze frame (like you usually get at the end of an ad break).
Comments
It is a very complex system mainly because TIVO hold hundreds of patents which cover most facets of data handling and sorting in regards to recording.
The series link approach is the best SKY have come up with which does not infringe the patents but relies on not only the hardware being 100% reliable but having the totally co-operation of each and every broadcaster not only to support the series links but maintain them on a daily basis.
A DTT PVR style device will have exactly the same problems but with the added complication of the broadcasters on the platform having no financial interest in supporting anything but the basic EPG listings.
Obviously Sky's system is based on codes as they often change the names of programmes in the EPG - The Simpsons is sometimes just Simpsons and the various incarnations of Star Trek sometimes omit Star Trek from the title.
There was also a problem for a while which resulted in programmes being wrongly listed in the Sky+ planner. If you recorded Coronation Street, for instance, and didn't get round to watching it straight away, if the code was used for, say Big Brother a couple of weeks later, the listing in the planner would change from Coronation Street to Big brother. Dashed infuriating it was too - hasn't happened for a while, though!
Thomson have seen you website - that's a bit exciting. I wonder what they will think?
There is a fan ... under the HDD - its a rotary tho.
James
Interesting
Perhaps the hdd isnt always spinning as suggested ,and its the noise of the fan instead
however , i wonder why cotman didnt detect this when he replaced the hdd
Question for cotman : have you connected the replacement hdd while keeping the existing hdd in place , ala open case arrangement?
Yes, I used the open case trick, just in case I decided to take it back due to bugs. There is a little sticker covering one of the screw holes holding the HD frame in place, it looks like one of those "touch me and I break" stickers. I did wonder about the small power feed going under the end of the HD mounting. As I have already said though, I personally think the PSU is the biggest source of heat in the unit.
I have just finished testing the larger hard drive in my box (Hitachi 7K250 160gb ATA100 7200rpm 8mb Cache ).
I managed to record just over 75 hours and having now checked the drives sectors in my PC I can confirm my suspicion that the drive was not completely full. Even though the box did not crash with the drive, it would not let me record past the 128Gb boundary. In fact the box acted like the drive was 128Gb.
My conclusions are that there is no point going past 120Gb as the extra space will be wasted and that the drive gets formatted on the fly with a custom file format so drive swapping should not be a major problem for anyone.
The drives boot sector mentions "AV PES/TS File System". If anybody has any documentation on the layout of this File System I would be very interested.
seems pretty close to the 160gb mark
perhaps the bitrate was slightly higher for a few programmes
and the drive reserves some space for epg data etc?
its just 75 hours seems very good for 128gb
btw when i looked at one of the thomsons running in dixons , seemed to me the right hand side of the unit for easily the hottest , i.e. the psu side , so i would agree there , however the psu can take it , keeping the hdd cool as possible is the key imo :eek:
I've mentioned recording subtitles, season passes (although that's more up to the EPG than Thomson, in the first instance), and being able to watch a recording from the beginning whilst it is still recording. I've suggested that they read the thread to extract the details of any other bugs. But I think there will be more suggestions for long to come. As an example just yesterday I was looking at the screen shots and noticed that the date of the recording is <day/month/year> - all numeric. On the Tivo it says, for example, "Thu 23/05". I'd like to see that first part as a text day short description as I often don't care what the actual date is (well, 15th is special for me as it's pay day!) but remember that I haven't watched Andromeda from last week. But that's just how I prefer it.
There was also the possible bug for Text not appearing, and the banner header not appearing, or disappearing too quickly.
Seems to be mentioned here:
http://www.linuxdvb.tv/documentation/faq/cache/7.html
With a snipped of code to convert to AV_PES here:
http://www.linuxtv.org/mailinglists/linux-dvb/2000/03-2000/msg00044.html
Cotman - did you notice any noise increase with a 7200 drive? I have a 120Gb 7200rpm drive but dont want to use it if it makes the box noticeably noiser.
Thanks
Also, some mention on newsgroups that the Nokia Mediamaster uses this same file system, so maybe Mediamex can read it - http://mediamex.free.fr/
Original Message
From: Info [mailto:info@fusiondigitec.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: The Fusion FVRT100
Thanks for your enquiry.
At this time you cannot view the beginning of a recording whilst it is still recording, we are evaluating this for future product releases.
Also with regards to weekly recordings, again at this time the product does not support this feature.
with best regards
So basically, I can't see any better features the Fusion has to offer and also it still is not available. The only difference may be the compression it offers but since you can upgrade this disk to 160/128gig(still in debate it sounds like!) I can't see any reason to go with the Fusion.
Over the weekend I compressed most things into long play and they were fine - I can't actually tell the difference. Already I feel like I would struggle to return to VHS.
The discussion about series link is interesting, since as someone has already pointed out, you can't schedule more than than the space available on the disk there might be a problem with long term scheduling of a series or weekly records.
So who is telling the truth??
So im getting the Thomson
This obviously confuses the issue, because I don''t know whether to stick with Sky (20 hours recording time and ongoing subs and Sky One & Paramount), or just switch to Freeview on the Thomson (40 hours +, no ongoing subs but Sky One or Paramount).
Bugger.
cheers.
jswift909 - excellent documentation on the website about the bugs and wishes etc. Thanks for doing that. I will try to send a little more detail about the bugs so maybe speed up Thomsons ability to fix them.
Annoyance
- You cannot schedule more programs than there is space available
Not a bug?
- I have had no problem with the favourites. If you select them from the program guide then as you move between channels PR+ and PR- you only go through your favourites. The same if you bring up the mini channel choice box by pressing OK when watching a channel, only your favourite channels are shown to jump too.
Did anyone find out if you can record more Radio than TV despite the usage space (agreed that time rather than gig would be much better) being shown as the same?
I do apologize , i did actually mean the left as well
1. Video glitches/freeze frames occassionally (this has happened several times to me).
2. If you set a reminder vis the EPG, it pops up an hour too early!
I have had all the other bugs mentioned too.
Regarding the wishlist, I agree with all the info on jswift909's website, plus I would like the "create thumbnail" setting to be part of the permanent set-up - I don't see why the box has to ask this after every recording, and don't see why it can't be a background process. Perhaps there could be an option in the set-up that says "prompt me to create thumbnails after programmes", so people can decide whether they get asked after every recording or not.
I would also be interested to know if the box could be upgraded to handle the Freeview 7 day EPG, as if you loose the 4TV data do you really want to wait until the next day? Also, what happens if 4TV decide to no longer broadcast (unlikely, I grant you).
Regarding resume playback, there is a bit of a trick to get around this. If you stop watching a recording and then watch some live TV for a bit, if you press "0" your recording will resume from where you left off. This is kind of documented in the manual, but not very clearly. This memory of where you were is of course lost if you watch a different recording. Also if you press "OK" during playback you can create a bookmark to your current position. However, I agree that a better way of resuming play is needed - the true mark of a product is that it can be used without major reference to the manual.
Oh, and another wish from my wife - ability to jump past adverts in a recording. Possibly this could work on jumping through chunks of 30 secs, or jump to the next freeze frame (like you usually get at the end of an ad break).