Upgrading the hard disk in a Thomson DHD 4000 (merged)

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  • diablodiablo Posts: 8,300
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    ash_earwig wrote:
    Suggest you try flashing again, as I got similar messages when doing mine (although without the "cannot write to drive", IIRC). If that fails to do the job, contact Samsung (andrew DOT meikle AT samsung DOT com); I'm sure Andrew can advise you how to get back to a working drive.

    Ash

    I tried running the flash again at the time, but nothing happened. I'll give it another go tonight before emailing Andrew - maybe the connectors weren't seated correctly?

    Thanks for the advice. :)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 39
    Forum Member
    Right! I've finally taken the plunge and ordered a MAXTOR 160GB 5400RPM from Technoworld.com. The blurb reckons that they are designed for quiet, cool operation in DVRs etc.
    I'll post any comments when I fit it.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 39
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    Received the Maxtor Quietview Disk (type 4R160L0) today. (Less than 24 hrs on normal delivery Not bad eh? - Thanks Technoworld). First impression are definately favourable. It's definately quieter than the original Thomson disk but I can hear faint clicking when recording 2 channels at once. This might lessen when the case is fitted again. I know it's early days but it seems ok so far.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 736
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    Just to add to the anecdotal DHD4000 upgrading experiences...

    Samsung SP1614N 160GB, bought from SVP:

    "{HA 4131} 3.5" Samsung Spinpoint SP1614N OEM 160GB ATA/133 HDD/8MB Buffer; Price: £58.49 / Euro 87.38 inc VAT."

    For a deliberate controlled comparison, I first connected it to the DHD4000 in condition received. On switch-on there was no progress beyond a steady amber light after ten minutes.

    Removed drive, connected it to primary IDE channel on PC and applied the firmware downgrade as clearly documented by Ash_Earwig's post here. This worked according to instructions, including the 'HUTIL' diagnostic tests and I set the drive to quiet mode using the tools in the same app.

    Replaced drive in the DHD4000. Switched on at the mains and it immediately worked; passing throught the flashing amber light stage to the steady red. Pressing the 'STB' button on the remote brought it alive; all channels previously stored from the original HDD useage are accessible and it has worked normally for the last 2 hours. Currently recording two programs.

    We'll see what happens overnight with the EPG. I'm assuming the firmware (previously downloaded) is now resident on the box rather than HDD.

    I have both drives in removeable caddies for other reasons so it will be interesting to see how the PVR tolerates drive swapping.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 736
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    Update: Full EPG data acquired overnight. Normal red light at standby, and unit came to life and worked as expected. So far so good...

    Amendment to the first post: before connecting drive to PC for flashing the firmware, drive jumpers were set to 'Master'. Before connecting back into the Thomson, changed to 'Cable Select'.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4
    Forum Member
    An example of comparing power needed to supply differing hard drives:

    Thomson original 40G hard drive
    +12v@310mA
    +5v@580mA
    6.62watts

    Maxtor 80G DiamondMax plus 9
    +12v@960mA
    +5v@670mA
    14.87watts

    I had been contemplating upgrading to a larger hard drive, but the first thing I noticed on the existing Thomson based drive compared to the Maxtor I was considering replacing it with was the Current Drain (amps). This would be significantly increased on the 12v supply from 310mA to 960mA. A difference of 650mA = 7.8 watts more power needed. On the 5v supply a further 90mA (0.45w) was needed, increasing the total power further needed to adequately supply the new hard drive to 8.25watts. The total capacity of the PSU in the Thomson is only 24watts max.

    This constitutes over a third more power needed. This is very significant and as I discovered when connecting the new drive there was a noticeable increase in the fan speed when the hard drive powered down in standby mode and a decrease when started up again (normal mode). This is called ‘voltage drop’. When insufficient power is being supplied to a device requiring it, the result is depleted function.

    The audible measurement of the fan dwindling is not nearly as important as the unseen depleted effect the extra drain is having upon the entire unit.

    This I believe constitutes the bulk of the problem. There may be ‘driver’ issues, but since most of the electronics controlling a hard drive are integrated (IDE = Integrated Drive Electronics) the problem seems far more likely to be solved with power supply.

    I may be wrong, but demanding significant amounts of power from a supply unable to deliver it, may well be the reason so many are having problems, more or less (Note: When you connect the antenna are you not increasing the units function i.e. power - to receive and display transmission?).

    A Suggestion would be to isolate the 12v supply to the hard drive by supplying it with an alternate supply (12v dc transformer), thus reducing the entire strain on the Thomson’s PSU to below its normal function, allowing any smaller amounts of extra drain needed to the +5v supply to be generated.

    This may solve the problem. Just make sure the amount needed to the +5v isn’t too significantly increased (about 1-200 milliamps more should be ok).

    I may have a go at it myself sometime, but for now am not watching so much TV that it concerns me to test this out yet. Obviously, only those familiar with the 4 wire IDE power connector should attempt this. Any 12v dc transformer should do, as long as it can supply enough juice to your hard drive.

    Good luck :)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 65
    Forum Member
    MAXTOR HDD are significantly more power hungry than other manufactures HDD such as the Samsung Spinpoint, i've done quite abit of research into this a while back, and the Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 consumes something like 14 Watts on 5 and 12V combined, where as the spinpoint only consumed about 8 Watts! only about 1.5Watts more than the origonal seagate drive :D and 6 Watts less than Maxtor! I've had a 120G Spinpoint 7200rpm drive for 4 months now and has been fine, even run it with fan disabled, though it does get a little warm. :rolleyes:
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 19
    Forum Member
    dogsbreth wrote:
    An example of comparing power needed to supply differing hard drives:

    Thomson original 40G hard drive
    +12v@310mA
    +5v@580mA
    6.62watts

    Maxtor 80G DiamondMax plus 9
    +12v@960mA
    +5v@670mA
    14.87watts

    I had been contemplating upgrading to a larger hard drive, but the first thing I noticed on the existing Thomson based drive compared to the Maxtor I was considering replacing it with was the Current Drain (amps). This would be significantly increased on the 12v supply from 310mA to 960mA. A difference of 650mA = 7.8 watts more power needed. On the 5v supply a further 90mA (0.45w) was needed, increasing the total power further needed to adequately supply the new hard drive to 8.25watts. The total capacity of the PSU in the Thomson is only 24watts max.

    A Suggestion would be to isolate the 12v supply to the hard drive by supplying it with an alternate supply (12v dc transformer), thus reducing the entire strain on the Thomson’s PSU to below its normal function, allowing any smaller amounts of extra drain needed to the +5v supply to be generated.

    I wonder if you know how much power the (noisy) fan takes. I intend to disconnect it when I upgrade and hope the power saving will cover the extra power needed for a Maxtor Quickview 160gb.

    I have raised the whole PVR on larger rubber feet and intend to place two computer case fans (on small rubber feet) underneath with their own power supply to keep the whole thing cool (The fans will be in serial and hence running slower than designed so as to keep them quiet, and will be powered using a cheap variable output DC power transformer so I can adjust the speed).

    If there really isn't enough power to run the new HD, it would probably be better to add a whole new external power supply and so remove a major source of heat. Is it obvious which wires are 12v and which 5v?
  • DX30DX30 Posts: 899
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    jondg1 wrote:
    I wonder if you know how much power the (noisy) fan takes. I intend to disconnect it when I upgrade and hope the power saving will cover the extra power needed for a Maxtor Quickview 160gb.

    I don't know how much power the particular model of fan used takes but I'd be surprised if it's more than 1 W. Fan's of this size are typically lower than that.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 17
    Forum Member
    I've been running a 200GB Maxtor 7200rpm HDD in my Thomson for well over a month now, with no other modification to the box, I have not had any problems with heat, power usage or lockups What so ever! I have been constantly recording to the box, I have even filled it up with over 70hrs of recordings, the box is stored in a cupboard underneath my TV, with only a small opening at the rear of the cupboard, and I have never noticed any problems with overheating, in my PC experience HDD can get very hot without any issues.

    So all I can say to you users that are thinking of upgrading, is just try it first before you go to the trouble of adding extra PSU’s and fans etc.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 194
    Forum Member
    I seem to have problems the morning after I delete a load of recordings... either I loose some EPG data or I get a lock up as soon as the thing turns on. Anyone else noticed this?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 194
    Forum Member
    gone back to standard HDD now, fed up of the continual problems.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 95
    Forum Member
    CupraPhill wrote:
    gone back to standard HDD now, fed up of the continual problems.
    That's a shame. Might be worth putting it in a PC, wiping it with Killdisk or similar and then leaving overnight in the Thomson to download the EPG; it might refresh the parts that other things can't reach. :)

    You could also try running the Samsung HUTIL utility to see if that shows up any errors.

    Once you get used to a big disk, I'm sure it's hard to go back to the original. I've been using an SP1604N for about 3 months now with no particular problems - and your SV 5400rpm HDD is probably a more appropriate drive for the Thomson.

    Ash
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 194
    Forum Member
    ash_earwig wrote:
    That's a shame. Might be worth putting it in a PC, wiping it with Killdisk or similar and then leaving overnight in the Thomson to download the EPG; it might refresh the parts that other things can't reach. :)

    You could also try running the Samsung HUTIL utility to see if that shows up any errors.

    Once you get used to a big disk, I'm sure it's hard to go back to the original. I've been using an SP1604N for about 3 months now with no particular problems - and your SV 5400rpm HDD is probably a more appropriate drive for the Thomson.

    Ash

    I have wiped it numerous times, ran all the tests, tried the different settings in the HUTIL, I give up!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,080
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    CupraPhill wrote:
    I have wiped it numerous times, ran all the tests, tried the different settings in the HUTIL, I give up!
    What kind of problems? I've had a Samsung SV1203N in there for a number of months now and it's been near enough fine.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 19
    Forum Member
    I have just taken the plunge and purchased a Samsung SV1203N 120G 5400rpm drive to replace my 40G one in the DHD 4000 i currently own. The installation went straight forward and i set the drive up to be cable select with the one jumper supplied. I fitted the drive into the plastic caddy ok but I would urger others to note where the screws come from.

    Once re-assembled I turned on the unit to get a flashing orange light. This soon turned to a permement orange.

    I left the unit on all last night and woke again still to the dreaded orange light.

    Has any one any ideas why this doesnt work?

    Otherwise I will have to re-fit the 40G and think this is not possible
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 19
    Forum Member
    Sebby* wrote:
    What kind of problems? I've had a Samsung SV1203N in there for a number of months now and it's been near enough fine.

    Did you have any problems setting the cable select mode.

    I had to change this to master to get it recognised by my P.C . I used Hex Editor to check the sectors where free and wiped.

    the jumper settings i used where here:

    http://support.packardbell.com/uk/mypc/index.php?PibItemNr=spec_hdd_Samsung_V80&PibItemParent=platform_clipper_imediasl

    as the samsung site was misleading.

    Can you also tell me did you have the orange light on permently or do you have any suggestions why this is all i get?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,528
    Forum Member
    ReallyUsefulMe,

    Sounds like you need:

    http://www.ourcottage.plus.com/samsung/

    You might want to just get and run the HUTIL first to be sure that your problem is new firmware. If it is (I think so!) then follow the instructions there.

    As I say at the bottom of the page I think I'm the only one for whom a Samsung downgrade did not work. Best of luck!

    Cliff
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 19
    Forum Member
    Ok have juist downloaded the files and am preparing to remove the drive and follow the instructions.

    Hopefully I will be like you and have mine fully working too very soon.

    Thankyou very much for your help

    I will keepo you updated
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 95
    Forum Member
    Can you also tell me did you have the orange light on permently or do you have any suggestions why this is all i get?
    If the HDD has firmware revision TMM100-30, then this is almost certainly the cause of the problem (perhaps Sebby* and/or CupraPhill could confirm that theirs are pre-30?). On some Samsung HDDs it has been necessary to revert to an older firmware version, TMM100-26 in order to get past the "full-on" orange light at boot up. You can check by putting in your PC and running HUTIL; WinHex or Hex Editor will probably tell you as well.

    The procedure for downgrading the firmware is detailed here (thanks to Cliff - CJL). Your SV1203N disk is on the list of models supported by the firmware downgrade.

    Ash
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,080
    Forum Member
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    Did you have any problems setting the cable select mode.
    Nope, no problems at all. I put it in my PC to set the acoustics, but apart from that, it went straight it. I can only think it's firmware-related as Cliff said. Let us know how you get on.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 19
    Forum Member
    Ok guys,

    Firstly thanks to the original enquires with samsung. I downloaded the patch patched my samsung which was as duly said by ash_earwig (Ashley) and NJO (Neil) that the new drives come with version TM100-30 as displayed by samsungs' HUTIL .

    I flashed the drive back to version TM100-26 but got an unusual error message the flash program told me to power down the drive so that it could continue. When I powered of the system at first the system would not see the drive however a full system shut down for 10 mins cleared this and the drive was visible.

    I then cleared the MBR and low formatted the drive from within HUTIL. The drive formatted with out errors.

    I have replaced the drive back into the Thomson box and powered up with cables connecterd.

    There was a noticible difference that the orange light flashed for a longer period before going to steady orange this took approx 45 secs of orange flashing from initial power on to get to the steady orange.

    I will leave the unit powered on overnight again and see whether the unit can now dowload the software and EPG.

    I will let everone know what happens tommorow unless anyone else has any further ideas.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 736
    Forum Member
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    You should be OK from now on (see post #480 above). I've had no problems for the last two weeks apart from a brief spell of non-functionality caused by the foolish use of a longer IDE cable.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 95
    Forum Member
    Orange doesn't sound too good to me; I don't think an overnight wait will make any difference if you can't bring it out of reset. After flashing, connecting to the Thomson and powering on, it should come up with a solid red light after 45 secs or so. It should then be working as normal (but with Now & Next, not the EPG).

    Perhaps the flash didn't work? Although if HUTIL reports the new/old version of firmware, then it should be OK.

    You did reset the drive to Cable Select after having it in the PC?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,080
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    There was a noticible difference that the orange light flashed for a longer period before going to steady orange this took approx 45 secs of orange flashing from initial power on to get to the steady orange.

    I will leave the unit powered on overnight again and see whether the unit can now dowload the software and EPG.
    This doesn't sound right. Tomorrow, the light will still be orange I would think. The light should go red. It sounds like the firmware downgrade did not complete successfully. Check the firmware version.
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