And another ... mine happened a couple of weeks back.
I had paused a programme - and when I tried to continue watching it wouldn't un-pause, in fact it wouldn't respond to the remote at all. Eventually had to resort to power-cycling, after which I had lost (access to) everything on my nearly full disk. Phoned Humax who said there would be a software update in about three weeks which they expected would recover the recordings on the disk - so I haven't reformatted yet.
Just looked here to see if there was any news on the software update.
Sorry to hear you've joined the club. The chap I spoke to didn't mention a recovery tool and didn't promise a date for the update.
I've been wondering why the 9200T has problems with the file system when the 8000T seemed pretty solid in this area. The only change would seem to be partitioning of the drive for the mp3 section.
I think the first manifestation of a problem is those two phantom files that come back after deletion. Given that files do have to be deleted this time I've chosen to leave those two phantoms in situ; they aren't taking up any disc space, only two directory entries. If those get deleted it appears that the directory table pointers get corrupted and at some stage cause the whole structure to become invalid; how this happens I don't know; let's hope Humax do.
If having the mp3 partition makes the whole machine unreliable then I'd be glad to see the partition 'done away with' unless it can be remedied. To me it would seem more sense not to partition the drive and have the MP3s share the main disc space so users could fill the whole disc with MP3s rather than programmes if they wished, or not have mp3s at all. With just one partition the reliability of the 8000T should be restotred and be more flexibile for users. If the MP3s need to be separated for a specific reason (can't think why) then place them in a folder within the main partition. Perhaps another folder could hold photos if required and another the EPG to save it having to be reloaded on each boot up.
As the reformat command would clearly get rid of everything on the disc, a new separate command may be useful just to delete all recordings (like a digital camera gives you the option to delete one photo or all of them.)
Whatever happens, lets hope it isn't long before this is fixed.
And another ... mine happened a couple of weeks back.
I had paused a programme - and when I tried to continue watching it wouldn't un-pause, in fact it wouldn't respond to the remote at all. Eventually had to resort to power-cycling, after which I had lost (access to) everything on my nearly full disk. Phoned Humax who said there would be a software update in about three weeks which they expected would recover the recordings on the disk - so I haven't reformatted yet.
Just looked here to see if there was any news on the software update.
Lost all my recordings about two days ago. Watched Surface then deleted it. Put the 9200 into standby and went to bed. Next day all my recordings had gone, all 4 months of them.
I'm waiting and hoping, like you, that the update can get them back.
Have previously lost all recordings. A post I have read since thought it may have been caused by deleting a recording made on that day, so I have not done this since and the box has been working fine.
Earlier posts mentioned having only 15GB space left after all recordings lost. What actually happens is when you start making new recordings it overwrites the old first so the so called 15GB would not reduce until you have filled up the drive again.
Have previously lost all recordings. A post I have read since thought it may have been caused by deleting a recording made on that day, so I have not done this since and the box has been working fine.
Earlier posts mentioned having only 15GB space left after all recordings lost. What actually happens is when you start making new recordings it overwrites the old first so the so called 15GB would not reduce until you have filled up the drive again.
Based on ChrisHay observation would somebody like to try and do a recording, watch it and then delete it - all in same day? we might see if this is the problem. I'd give it a go but, like majority of us, I have loads of recordings not seen yet and son't want to risk it. But! if there is somebody with their recording they don't mind loosing maybe it can be tried out. It would be a great help and if this is the case then we can avoid that type of operation.
No, recording, watching and deleting all in the same day isn't as issue.
In the case in question, following the lost recordings the hard disc directory and block allocation map (BAM) have become out of synch so the drive needs reforamtting ASAP. The directory entries have been corrupted but the BAM hasn't been updated accordingly to free the disc space. Theoretically, if the drive isn't used after this it ought to be possible to recover the lost recordings as one would on a PC by reconstructing the files (each block has a pointer to where the next block is on the drive.) The only problem is that the disc format isn't a standard windows variety so a PC software tool cannot be used off the shelf as the PC software needs to know the file system that has been used.
There is one piece of PC software that can read the Humax disc format that is designed to download the .ts files off an 8000T (the disc needs mounting in the PC or external unit as the 8000T doesn't have a USB.) This software is DVR-Studio with the DVR-Transfer Humax8000.exe extension and is lilely to be more reliable than the 9200T's USB elinker system that doesn't do any error checking. As I haven't tried it I don't know if this mounts the drive on a PC and allow one to examine the Humax drive directly, but if it can it may well allow the use of some undelete PC software to recover lost /deleted files. Perhaps someone who has tried this can say if the drive can be explored like a PC drive, in which case recovery seems highly likely.
Regarding a drive where the recordings appear lost, any further recordings while the drive is in limbo are likely to get corrupted.
To overcome future loss of programmes after reformatting, the first two programmes you delete will appear to come back as ghosts with a file size of zero bytes. Do not redelete those entries as that appears to be how the drive gets corrupted and gives rise to playback and file system issues. I don't think it helps either if the Humax locks up in the middle of a recording as again the BAM will get corrupted.
These issues are what Humax need to address to get reliability into the device.
No, recording, watching and deleting all in the same day isn't as issue.
In the case in question, following the lost recordings the hard disc directory and block allocation map (BAM) have become out of synch so the drive needs reforamtting ASAP. The directory entries have been corrupted but the BAM hasn't been updated accordingly to free the disc space. Theoretically, if the drive isn't used after this it ought to be possible to recover the lost recordings as one would on a PC by reconstructing the files (each block has a pointer to where the next block is on the drive.) The only problem is that the disc format isn't a standard windows variety so a PC software tool cannot be used off the shelf as the PC software needs to know the file system that has been used.
There is one piece of PC software that can read the Humax disc format that is designed to download the .ts files off an 8000T (the disc needs mounting in the PC or external unit as the 8000T doesn't have a USB.) This software is DVR-Studio with the DVR-Transfer Humax8000.exe extension and is lilely to be more reliable than the 9200T's USB elinker system that doesn't do any error checking. As I haven't tried it I don't know if this mounts the drive on a PC and allow one to examine the Humax drive directly, but if it can it may well allow the use of some undelete PC software to recover lost /deleted files. Perhaps someone who has tried this can say if the drive can be explored like a PC drive, in which case recovery seems highly likely.
Regarding a drive where the recordings appear lost, any further recordings while the drive is in limbo are likely to get corrupted.
To overcome future loss of programmes after reformatting, the first two programmes you delete will appear to come back as ghosts with a file size of zero bytes. Do not redelete those entries as that appears to be how the drive gets corrupted and gives rise to playback and file system issues. I don't think it helps either if the Humax locks up in the middle of a recording as again the BAM will get corrupted.
These issues are what Humax need to address to get reliability into the device.
Considered theory based on use of third party DOS file systems for the Amiga OS (it was possible to rewrite it to increase the amount of data stored), experience of the trail of events of using a 9200T to the point of loss of data, and data recovery on Amiga and PC. One gets an intuitive feeling of what's happening. I was quite ofay with alternative DOS's for the Amiga in its day but when I try to access those discs many years later it's tricky knowing what I'd used. It is possible to set up a dedicated true Amiga DOS partition on a PC for use with emulation software for maximum compatibility though its easier just use a folder instead.
It cannot be fact as I do not know (yet) the format of Humax DOS. But it has to be similar, only different!
I've a strong feeling that there are a couple of incorrect bytes getting written by the Humax DOS in the 9200T during the Format so in effect its pointing to a wrong DOS location for the first two entries. This was OK in the 8000 as the disc wasn't partitioned.
To go back to the original query about using the Humax after data loss; the whole system has already got itself into a mess so adding more to it will only make matters worse.
Best to reformat and start again afer getting off the Humax what's wanted/possible. It's not wise to continue using it in a corrupted state; won't damage the unit but probable data will be lost.
I've recently obtained a second 8000T/40 and will upgrade the HD in that to 250mb soon. When I take the old drive out I'll try that drive with the DVR software to see what data access it allows. If it mounts the drive so it can be explored (unlike elinker on the 9200T) it is virtually certain some data retreival programs should be able to undelete data. This may work with the 9200T too unless the partioning method causes problems, given that it isn't 100%.
Since reformatting my 9200T and leaving the two phantom directory entries in situ I haven't had that message about loss of signal during playback anymore, thank goodness.
Considered theory based on use of third party DOS file systems for the Amiga OS (it was possible to rewrite it to increase the amount of data stored), experience of the trail of events of using a 9200T to the point of loss of data, and data recovery on Amiga and PC. One gets an intuitive feeling of what's happening. I was quite ofay with alternative DOS's for the Amiga in its day but when I try to access those discs many years later it's tricky knowing what I'd used. It is possible to set up a dedicated true Amiga DOS partition on a PC for use with emulation software for maximum compatibility though its easier just use a folder instead.
It cannot be fact as I do not know (yet) the format of Humax DOS. But it has to be similar, only different!
I've a strong feeling that there are a couple of incorrect bytes getting written by the Humax DOS in the 9200T during the Format so in effect its pointing to a wrong DOS location for the first two entries. This was OK in the 8000 as the disc wasn't partitioned.
To go back to the original query about using the Humax after data loss; the whole system has already got itself into a mess so adding more to it will only make matters worse.
Best to reformat and start again afer getting off the Humax what's wanted/possible. It's not wise to continue using it in a corrupted state; won't damage the unit but probable data will be lost.
I've recently obtained a second 8000T/40 and will upgrade the HD in that to 250mb soon. When I take the old drive out I'll try that drive with the DVR software to see what data access it allows. If it mounts the drive so it can be explored (unlike elinker on the 9200T) it is virtually certain some data retreival programs should be able to undelete data. This may work with the 9200T too unless the partioning method causes problems, given that it isn't 100%.
Since reformatting my 9200T and leaving the two phantom directory entries in situ I haven't had that message about loss of signal during playback anymore, thank goodness.
JAK99, I hope you didnt mind me asking. I didnt necesserily concur with everything you were saying based on my recolection of experiences logged (but what do I know!). But the more we talk about it and get things aired the better our understanding will be as we go along - so very much all good. One thing I would point out is the PVR-8000 is a different PVR to the one you are talking about so the DVR-Studio transfer pack may not work. This is a satelite product and the freeview product is denoted by a T at the end of the model name. They have a list of satelite and DTT products that are supported and a seporate list which is handy of devices that are definately not supported. The freeview model 8000T is not listed in either so there is some chance the programme will still work. The manufacturer of this PVR uses a Humax modified proprietry disk format - like you I think it will be interesting to know how this will show up on a windows or linux PC if connected. I am really temped to do this tonight :eek:
I tried DVR Studio with the 9200T file ported from my sick machine which had lost its recordings. In fact that ported file played fine though with a bit of another program tagged on the end that didn't show up when played back on the Humax. Odd.
The Humax 8000 extension is to get the video file off the hard drive when there isn't a direct method; I feel sure it will work. I now see what you mean that it is really designed for the other sat version of the Humax8000, confusing or what!?
Still worth a try though. I'm not installing the software properly yet to try it as I'm not quite ready. The trial is only 30 days so best not install it until needed. I did give it a quick try before reverting my PC drive with the 9200T version and managed to convert the file to standard mpeg, or it will burn to DVD (didn't try that.) I must say that at 2 in the morning it may not have twigged with me that the 8000 wasn't our 8000, but what the heck, got to be worth a try.
For anyone wondering what this DVR Studio software is, here's a link:
Google brings up German text so one may easily pass it by. This software seems to perform a similar process to VideoReDo with the added feature of accessing files off of disk drives with no direct link.
I still believe that Humax need to get this issue sorted out ASAP as this is a domestic PVR, not an experimental development unit though it needs handling like that at present. One ought not need a visit to the library to swot up on DOS and file retrieval just to view one's recordings from the night before! I really cannot envisage what Humax are waiting for by not sorting this out with an OTA update now unless there is a fatal flaw that prevents this, in which case they need to take appropriate remedial action. If they can't get the DOS right on it, any other improvement is a waste of effort as the PVR will still not be reliable. Sorry to go on about this as it seems to upset some, but at nearly £240 one expects better, especially as this wasn't an issue at all with the previous model. Was it really worth bothering adding an MP3 facility for this headache?
Something else worth noting and I haven't mentioned it previously. Since doing the system reset and reformatting the drive, my scheduled recordings have been getting date stamped correctly. Previously daily repeats had tomorrows's date and weekly ones next week's date as has been noted by many in posts regarding the 9200T. But now they are all presently date stamped OK in this regard and I am still on the original October software. Now that's odd isn't it?
Marc, with regard to query that led me to post earlier today by Dai Alfa
Based on ChrisHay observation would somebody like to try and do a recording, watch it and then delete it - all in same day? we might see if this is the problem. I'd give it a go but, like majority of us, I have loads of recordings not seen yet and son't want to risk it. But! if there is somebody with their recording they don't mind loosing maybe it can be tried out. It would be a great help and if this is the case then we can avoid that type of operation.
I do this all the time so that was definitely based on fact. As to the failings of the 9200T it can only be conjecture unless Humax are prepared to divulge details of their software but I doubt they would be prepared to do so and I am not into hacking such things. It would seem that if the file system problem is cured, the date stamping issue will be cured too; these issues do appear to be somehow linked. I am still of the opinion that deleting the two phantom files causes the DOS to get corrupted eventually leading to loss of all recordings. While I am getting accurate date stamps I cannot envisage a further loss of recordings.
So while I cannot prove this theory, I am of the opinion that if your 9200T is correctly date stamping scheduled repeat recordings, then loss of data seems unlikely. But if you do get forward dating, then at some time it will loose all the recordings off the drive. It would be interesting to know if anyone else IS getting accurate date stamps on scheduled recordings. Also, if they are, have they ever suffered loss of any or all recordings.
From my experiece, it would seem that the critical time just before loss of all recordings was when scheduled recordings were not saved (cannot say if it went through the motions of recording them as mine happened overnight.) In any event, went to look for a recording that should have been made and it wasn't there whereas previously they had been.
Marc, wonder if you've tried the DVR-Studio Humax 8000 extension with any success?
JAK99,
Finally got around to posting on this thread. I was up last night till the early hours and could see you posts but was tied up with still much to get through and also desporately wanting to go to bed as earliest I could!
Tried the PVR-8000 add in for DVR-Studio and it went through the motions of trying to read the disk but could not show anything. I got a reply from a guy from the company who makes DVR-Studio and he says that this is for the satellite version and had no idea if this would work on the 8000T. The other thing is that according to their web site the native format of recordings on the sat version of the hard disk is VID while on the 8000T in this country I would have expected it to be TS. Oh well worth a try wasnt it.
The had disk on the 9200 has a proprietry format which is why my computer could do anything with it. I tried to at least initialise it on the computer but for the operating system to see anything on the disk it would have needed to format it into something it supports i guess.
While the disk was out of the PVR I thought I would see what happens when the machine starts up without the disk. Basicallys is an expensive STB with all functions working appart from disk related ones being disabled. The menu structure changes to exactly like that being reported by those who had the "forgot I'm a PVR bug". In that bug/issue the hard disk isnt detected during start up, could be loose cabling/faulty on board controllers etc who knows but I digress. Before I leave this subject I did notice that scheduled timers are not stored on the hard disk because I could set timers and it would retrieve them all after standby and also after a complete power down.
You have mentioned about the wrong date stamp bug on repeat timers. The bug is replicatable but there seems to be some rules I dont quite understand about it as I also have had this bug but its not always going to do it for some reason. In fact like you have havent remembered seeing this problem in a while so i have made some timers with repeats for the express purpose of testing your theory out, seeing as I have had the full factory reset/format done after I finshed everything last night.
I must say at this point I am sceptical there is a link between the repeat timers/date bug and lost recordings. Especially as we have been doing this since October as a common task.
I didnt think there was any mileage in exploring Dai comments any further either but I am not saying it wasnt worth posting on here as anything is worth a try or theory aired. My reason for not persuing it is because of the amount of recordings that have been made and deleted on the same day since October.
Paul Shirley has suggested there are some replicable ways of loosing the hard disk so this should be interesting to move forward with as well as your ideas.
You say 'I didnt think there was any mileage in exploring Dai comments any further either but I am not saying it wasnt worth posting on here as anything is worth a try or theory aired. My reason for not persuing it is because of the amount of recordings that have been made and deleted on the same day since October'
Does this mean you've proven that you've done loads of recordings and deleted on the same day with no other loss of programmes? If so then you've done the test anyway and proven that this is not a problem. Is this correct?
You say 'I didnt think there was any mileage in exploring Dai comments any further either but I am not saying it wasnt worth posting on here as anything is worth a try or theory aired. My reason for not persuing it is because of the amount of recordings that have been made and deleted on the same day since October'
Does this mean you've proven that you've done loads of recordings and deleted on the same day with no other loss of programmes? If so then you've done the test anyway and proven that this is not a problem. Is this correct?
Dai, yes this is correct. I read some comments recently from Paul Shirley along the lines that he has figured out the way to loose/corrupt the recordings table and invited him to share here. I have since tried to replicate based on the snippets he gave away, like renaming recordings via elinker and generally trying to mess things up but was unable to fill in the missing gaps to a point I can make it happen. Has everyone in this thread who has lost recordings done so following an elinker crash or renaming reordings on the machine via elinker?
I was only able to have a brief chat tonight and went through a few things. Re lost recordings table, what Humax did was refer this to someone senior in Korea to work on full time. This is why the usual engineers are able to keep productive and carry on preparing fixes, solutions and features for the next set of software updates rolling out in the following few weeks and months. I say this because there have been one or two posters recently saying that Humax are more interested in working on trivial bugs or features than working on whats the most important. Anyway, Humax had 3 machines that had been returned to them in Ireland which had this issue and the hard drives went to Korea to this specialist. There is no news appart from they have the best people on it and hopefully it wont take them too much longer. Apparantly this guy is being relocated this way from Korea. I dont know what effect a geographical change is going to do to finding a fix though but I hope its weeks not months before there is a fix, if not as soon as poss, and makes it in one of the software updates soon. Re 'the tool' its not a go'er - for the time being. They have dedicated resources on this full time and have confidence the problem will be found and be prevented from happening rather than letting all that stop and taken in another direction that isnt a cure. They know exactly what I mean and the reasons but thats the way it is for the time being at least. This subject around the lost recordings table was last thing we discussed before we got cut off (driving) but I dont think there was anything more on the subject. I will have another chat about this to check on any progress/news/change of plan re tool in a couple of weeks.
I bought my 9200T about six weeks ago, just before going away for 4 weeks.
My dealer had been awaiting a delivery, and as this hadn't arrived before I left, I took the shop display model, which had behaved itself since new, but had the original version software.
On my return I was delighted to find that everything seemed to have recorded as planned - 60+ recordings..
We have watched a few programmes, but yesterday I discovered that everything recorded before last Saturday has disappeared. As seems to be the norm when this happens, the Hard disk allocation shows the disk to be more than half full, thus reflecting the 60-odd programmes which had been stored.
Since our return, we had watched several of our recordings.
I had also “top and tailed” a few.
On Saturday afternoon we watched one recording, erased it, then watched another.
I then turned off the TV but not the box.
A couple of hours later I turned the TV on again, only to find that the box had switched itself off.
I switched it on again and thought no more of it.
Having had rather a busy week, we recorded several more programmes.
It was only last night, when looking at the recordings list, that I realised that everything recorded before Saturday evening (TV and Radio) had disappeared.
I know that the advice is now to reformat the Hard Disk, but that would mean losing everything else, so I’m going to soldier on until we’ve cleared the backlog.
From what I’ve read, people have different theories about the cause, but the one common factor seems to be that the disc is over half-full at the time.
I've e-mailed Humax asking if they are any nearer finding the fix and I await their reply
We lost everything the other day, first time it's happened.
We left it late in the evening recording two programs. The next day the two 'new' progs were there - the other half dozen or so weren't. The disc is showing about 40GB used so they are probably still there.
So the disc was nothing like half full and I had never had the beast hooked to a computer. So those two theories are looking shaky.
It had been OK since last October, until I set the auto-on timer a about 10 days ago following which it got the 'thinks its recording' bug. So I dropped the timer. A couple of nights later I was watching late and at midnight it said it would auto-off unless I wanted to continue watching (WTF? I never set the auto-off). A few days later it dumped the recordings, and now I think on it I'm fairly sure one of them went on past midnight. I wonder ...
At this point I did cart the beast over to the PC for the first time, downloaded the latest eLinker, and had a look to see if I could rescue the recordings. But it could only see the two new ones. For now I have left it as is in the hope that a software update might 'revisualize' these ghosts.
I powered up yesterday only to find that the humax responded to my changing channels etc. but when I pressed the guide list button there was no response at all i.e. I couldn't see the list of recordings which totalled about 12 programmes. I then switched it off at the back then switched it on again and thankfully, on pressing the button again the list appeared. Hope this is not a warning of worse things to come!
I did the restore default settings because one of my tuners seemed to have disappeared after my 9200 carried on recording after the set time, and needed re-booting to stop. It clearly states in the manuel that restoring default settings will loose the channel list etc but that "no information on the hard drive will be lost"
DO NOT BE FOOLED.
I have lost everything (although as many of you state, the disc still tells me its 3/4 full)
I'm not re-formating - just in case, but I am resigned to the fact that I have lost everything
I did the restore default settings because one of my tuners seemed to have disappeared after my 9200 carried on recording after the set time, and needed re-booting to stop. It clearly states in the manuel that restoring default settings will loose the channel list etc but that "no information on the hard drive will be lost"
DO NOT BE FOOLED.
I have lost everything (although as many of you state, the disc still tells me its 3/4 full)
I'm not re-formating - just in case, but I am resigned to the fact that I have lost everything
NOT HAPPY
To understand whats going on you need to know the format the disk uses is it a FAT Linux ?
If the disk is still showing data either the file headers may have been deleted which may be asy to recover from using pretty standard undelete tools or it could be the file allocation tables are corrupt. Neither of these things should normally happen . I have only once in 10 years have had a FAT table corrupted on a PC.
To understand whats going on you need to know the format the disk uses is it a FAT Linux ?
If the disk is still showing data either the file headers may have been deleted which may be asy to recover from using pretty standard undelete tools or it could be the file allocation tables are corrupt. Neither of these things should normally happen . I have only once in 10 years have had a FAT table corrupted on a PC.
can anyone answer this? I certainly can't!
I'm not re-formating just in case!!!
can anyone answer this? I certainly can't!
I'm not re-formating just in case!!!
IF you want the space on the disk you might as well re-format.
Based on the length of time that Humax have known about this problem and the lack of a fix so far I wouldn't rely on them bringing out a fix anytime soon.
I don't think that anyone has yet managed to retrieve any data after this problem.
Based on the length of time that Humax have known about this problem and the lack of a fix so far I wouldn't rely on them bringing out a fix anytime soon.
An earlier marcdavis post confirmed Humax have dropped the recovery tool, preferring to 'avoid the problem happening', not much help for those of us with an existing damaged or destroyed filesystem.
I don't think that anyone has yet managed to retrieve any data after this problem.
Some of us have recovered recordings. Sometimes recordings we didn't actually want instead of new ones we did! You can get them by making sure the filesys is corrupt then a time consuming process of recording short files, editing them and grabbing in eLinker. Its a random process with no control and every file you recover gets damaged by it... I don't recommend you even try unless there's something desperately important on the drive.
My guess is the corruption is related to the half assed hacks they bolted on to run eLinker, the persistent inability to keep the 9200 and eLinker views of the recordings in sync on my machine is a massive clue that Humax seem uninterested in exploring.
As soon as you notice your recordings have disappeared from the index, set the Humax box to repeatedly record one minute of your most watched channel. For example, if you mainly record programmes from Channel 4, set the timer as follows:
When you try to play each recording, it will play the first minute of the new recording followed by all but the first minute of one of your lost recordings.
However, this only works if your lost recording was on the same channel as your new recording. If it wasn’t, you will get an error message after playing back the first minute of the new recording. I suppose, in theory, it would be possible to recover all of your recordings if you kept a record of what you recorded.
Occasionally the box may play back a new recording and then stop. I think this may occur when the new recording replaces a recording that you deleted before the recordings were lost.
April 1st saw new software release for the 9200t, as seen on the Humax website.
I got really optimistic that HUMAX had solved the lost recordings issues, until I looked at the fixes this new version offers:
PGXTF 1.00.04
1. Fixed hang up problem.
2. Fixed no sound problem on recordings.
3. Improved radio recordings.
4. Improved editing scheduled recordings.
5. Fixed MP3 Playback problem on the SPDIF connection
Don't think I'll bother downloading it (no Freeview OTA).
Comments
I had paused a programme - and when I tried to continue watching it wouldn't un-pause, in fact it wouldn't respond to the remote at all. Eventually had to resort to power-cycling, after which I had lost (access to) everything on my nearly full disk. Phoned Humax who said there would be a software update in about three weeks which they expected would recover the recordings on the disk - so I haven't reformatted yet.
Just looked here to see if there was any news on the software update.
I've been wondering why the 9200T has problems with the file system when the 8000T seemed pretty solid in this area. The only change would seem to be partitioning of the drive for the mp3 section.
I think the first manifestation of a problem is those two phantom files that come back after deletion. Given that files do have to be deleted this time I've chosen to leave those two phantoms in situ; they aren't taking up any disc space, only two directory entries. If those get deleted it appears that the directory table pointers get corrupted and at some stage cause the whole structure to become invalid; how this happens I don't know; let's hope Humax do.
If having the mp3 partition makes the whole machine unreliable then I'd be glad to see the partition 'done away with' unless it can be remedied. To me it would seem more sense not to partition the drive and have the MP3s share the main disc space so users could fill the whole disc with MP3s rather than programmes if they wished, or not have mp3s at all. With just one partition the reliability of the 8000T should be restotred and be more flexibile for users. If the MP3s need to be separated for a specific reason (can't think why) then place them in a folder within the main partition. Perhaps another folder could hold photos if required and another the EPG to save it having to be reloaded on each boot up.
As the reformat command would clearly get rid of everything on the disc, a new separate command may be useful just to delete all recordings (like a digital camera gives you the option to delete one photo or all of them.)
Whatever happens, lets hope it isn't long before this is fixed.
Lost all my recordings about two days ago. Watched Surface then deleted it. Put the 9200 into standby and went to bed. Next day all my recordings had gone, all 4 months of them.
I'm waiting and hoping, like you, that the update can get them back.
Earlier posts mentioned having only 15GB space left after all recordings lost. What actually happens is when you start making new recordings it overwrites the old first so the so called 15GB would not reduce until you have filled up the drive again.
In the case in question, following the lost recordings the hard disc directory and block allocation map (BAM) have become out of synch so the drive needs reforamtting ASAP. The directory entries have been corrupted but the BAM hasn't been updated accordingly to free the disc space. Theoretically, if the drive isn't used after this it ought to be possible to recover the lost recordings as one would on a PC by reconstructing the files (each block has a pointer to where the next block is on the drive.) The only problem is that the disc format isn't a standard windows variety so a PC software tool cannot be used off the shelf as the PC software needs to know the file system that has been used.
There is one piece of PC software that can read the Humax disc format that is designed to download the .ts files off an 8000T (the disc needs mounting in the PC or external unit as the 8000T doesn't have a USB.) This software is DVR-Studio with the DVR-Transfer Humax8000.exe extension and is lilely to be more reliable than the 9200T's USB elinker system that doesn't do any error checking. As I haven't tried it I don't know if this mounts the drive on a PC and allow one to examine the Humax drive directly, but if it can it may well allow the use of some undelete PC software to recover lost /deleted files. Perhaps someone who has tried this can say if the drive can be explored like a PC drive, in which case recovery seems highly likely.
Regarding a drive where the recordings appear lost, any further recordings while the drive is in limbo are likely to get corrupted.
To overcome future loss of programmes after reformatting, the first two programmes you delete will appear to come back as ghosts with a file size of zero bytes. Do not redelete those entries as that appears to be how the drive gets corrupted and gives rise to playback and file system issues. I don't think it helps either if the Humax locks up in the middle of a recording as again the BAM will get corrupted.
These issues are what Humax need to address to get reliability into the device.
JAK99,
Is this your considered theory or fact?
Marc
Considered theory based on use of third party DOS file systems for the Amiga OS (it was possible to rewrite it to increase the amount of data stored), experience of the trail of events of using a 9200T to the point of loss of data, and data recovery on Amiga and PC. One gets an intuitive feeling of what's happening. I was quite ofay with alternative DOS's for the Amiga in its day but when I try to access those discs many years later it's tricky knowing what I'd used. It is possible to set up a dedicated true Amiga DOS partition on a PC for use with emulation software for maximum compatibility though its easier just use a folder instead.
It cannot be fact as I do not know (yet) the format of Humax DOS. But it has to be similar, only different!
I've a strong feeling that there are a couple of incorrect bytes getting written by the Humax DOS in the 9200T during the Format so in effect its pointing to a wrong DOS location for the first two entries. This was OK in the 8000 as the disc wasn't partitioned.
To go back to the original query about using the Humax after data loss; the whole system has already got itself into a mess so adding more to it will only make matters worse.
Best to reformat and start again afer getting off the Humax what's wanted/possible. It's not wise to continue using it in a corrupted state; won't damage the unit but probable data will be lost.
I've recently obtained a second 8000T/40 and will upgrade the HD in that to 250mb soon. When I take the old drive out I'll try that drive with the DVR software to see what data access it allows. If it mounts the drive so it can be explored (unlike elinker on the 9200T) it is virtually certain some data retreival programs should be able to undelete data. This may work with the 9200T too unless the partioning method causes problems, given that it isn't 100%.
Since reformatting my 9200T and leaving the two phantom directory entries in situ I haven't had that message about loss of signal during playback anymore, thank goodness.
JAK99, I hope you didnt mind me asking. I didnt necesserily concur with everything you were saying based on my recolection of experiences logged (but what do I know!). But the more we talk about it and get things aired the better our understanding will be as we go along - so very much all good. One thing I would point out is the PVR-8000 is a different PVR to the one you are talking about so the DVR-Studio transfer pack may not work. This is a satelite product and the freeview product is denoted by a T at the end of the model name. They have a list of satelite and DTT products that are supported and a seporate list which is handy of devices that are definately not supported. The freeview model 8000T is not listed in either so there is some chance the programme will still work. The manufacturer of this PVR uses a Humax modified proprietry disk format - like you I think it will be interesting to know how this will show up on a windows or linux PC if connected. I am really temped to do this tonight :eek:
The Humax 8000 extension is to get the video file off the hard drive when there isn't a direct method; I feel sure it will work. I now see what you mean that it is really designed for the other sat version of the Humax8000, confusing or what!?
Still worth a try though. I'm not installing the software properly yet to try it as I'm not quite ready. The trial is only 30 days so best not install it until needed. I did give it a quick try before reverting my PC drive with the 9200T version and managed to convert the file to standard mpeg, or it will burn to DVD (didn't try that.) I must say that at 2 in the morning it may not have twigged with me that the 8000 wasn't our 8000, but what the heck, got to be worth a try.
For anyone wondering what this DVR Studio software is, here's a link:
http://www.haenlein-software.com/HS/index.php?PHPSESSID=713a53692e7a4ba583b3df63174953aa
Google brings up German text so one may easily pass it by. This software seems to perform a similar process to VideoReDo with the added feature of accessing files off of disk drives with no direct link.
I still believe that Humax need to get this issue sorted out ASAP as this is a domestic PVR, not an experimental development unit though it needs handling like that at present. One ought not need a visit to the library to swot up on DOS and file retrieval just to view one's recordings from the night before! I really cannot envisage what Humax are waiting for by not sorting this out with an OTA update now unless there is a fatal flaw that prevents this, in which case they need to take appropriate remedial action. If they can't get the DOS right on it, any other improvement is a waste of effort as the PVR will still not be reliable. Sorry to go on about this as it seems to upset some, but at nearly £240 one expects better, especially as this wasn't an issue at all with the previous model. Was it really worth bothering adding an MP3 facility for this headache?
Marc, with regard to query that led me to post earlier today by Dai Alfa
I do this all the time so that was definitely based on fact. As to the failings of the 9200T it can only be conjecture unless Humax are prepared to divulge details of their software but I doubt they would be prepared to do so and I am not into hacking such things. It would seem that if the file system problem is cured, the date stamping issue will be cured too; these issues do appear to be somehow linked. I am still of the opinion that deleting the two phantom files causes the DOS to get corrupted eventually leading to loss of all recordings. While I am getting accurate date stamps I cannot envisage a further loss of recordings.
So while I cannot prove this theory, I am of the opinion that if your 9200T is correctly date stamping scheduled repeat recordings, then loss of data seems unlikely. But if you do get forward dating, then at some time it will loose all the recordings off the drive. It would be interesting to know if anyone else IS getting accurate date stamps on scheduled recordings. Also, if they are, have they ever suffered loss of any or all recordings.
From my experiece, it would seem that the critical time just before loss of all recordings was when scheduled recordings were not saved (cannot say if it went through the motions of recording them as mine happened overnight.) In any event, went to look for a recording that should have been made and it wasn't there whereas previously they had been.
Marc, wonder if you've tried the DVR-Studio Humax 8000 extension with any success?
Finally got around to posting on this thread. I was up last night till the early hours and could see you posts but was tied up with still much to get through and also desporately wanting to go to bed as earliest I could!
Tried the PVR-8000 add in for DVR-Studio and it went through the motions of trying to read the disk but could not show anything. I got a reply from a guy from the company who makes DVR-Studio and he says that this is for the satellite version and had no idea if this would work on the 8000T. The other thing is that according to their web site the native format of recordings on the sat version of the hard disk is VID while on the 8000T in this country I would have expected it to be TS. Oh well worth a try wasnt it.
The had disk on the 9200 has a proprietry format which is why my computer could do anything with it. I tried to at least initialise it on the computer but for the operating system to see anything on the disk it would have needed to format it into something it supports i guess.
While the disk was out of the PVR I thought I would see what happens when the machine starts up without the disk. Basicallys is an expensive STB with all functions working appart from disk related ones being disabled. The menu structure changes to exactly like that being reported by those who had the "forgot I'm a PVR bug". In that bug/issue the hard disk isnt detected during start up, could be loose cabling/faulty on board controllers etc who knows but I digress. Before I leave this subject I did notice that scheduled timers are not stored on the hard disk because I could set timers and it would retrieve them all after standby and also after a complete power down.
You have mentioned about the wrong date stamp bug on repeat timers. The bug is replicatable but there seems to be some rules I dont quite understand about it as I also have had this bug but its not always going to do it for some reason. In fact like you have havent remembered seeing this problem in a while so i have made some timers with repeats for the express purpose of testing your theory out, seeing as I have had the full factory reset/format done after I finshed everything last night.
I must say at this point I am sceptical there is a link between the repeat timers/date bug and lost recordings. Especially as we have been doing this since October as a common task.
I didnt think there was any mileage in exploring Dai comments any further either but I am not saying it wasnt worth posting on here as anything is worth a try or theory aired. My reason for not persuing it is because of the amount of recordings that have been made and deleted on the same day since October.
Paul Shirley has suggested there are some replicable ways of loosing the hard disk so this should be interesting to move forward with as well as your ideas.
You say 'I didnt think there was any mileage in exploring Dai comments any further either but I am not saying it wasnt worth posting on here as anything is worth a try or theory aired. My reason for not persuing it is because of the amount of recordings that have been made and deleted on the same day since October'
Does this mean you've proven that you've done loads of recordings and deleted on the same day with no other loss of programmes? If so then you've done the test anyway and proven that this is not a problem. Is this correct?
Dai, yes this is correct. I read some comments recently from Paul Shirley along the lines that he has figured out the way to loose/corrupt the recordings table and invited him to share here. I have since tried to replicate based on the snippets he gave away, like renaming recordings via elinker and generally trying to mess things up but was unable to fill in the missing gaps to a point I can make it happen. Has everyone in this thread who has lost recordings done so following an elinker crash or renaming reordings on the machine via elinker?
My dealer had been awaiting a delivery, and as this hadn't arrived before I left, I took the shop display model, which had behaved itself since new, but had the original version software.
On my return I was delighted to find that everything seemed to have recorded as planned - 60+ recordings..
We have watched a few programmes, but yesterday I discovered that everything recorded before last Saturday has disappeared. As seems to be the norm when this happens, the Hard disk allocation shows the disk to be more than half full, thus reflecting the 60-odd programmes which had been stored.
Since our return, we had watched several of our recordings.
I had also “top and tailed” a few.
On Saturday afternoon we watched one recording, erased it, then watched another.
I then turned off the TV but not the box.
A couple of hours later I turned the TV on again, only to find that the box had switched itself off.
I switched it on again and thought no more of it.
Having had rather a busy week, we recorded several more programmes.
It was only last night, when looking at the recordings list, that I realised that everything recorded before Saturday evening (TV and Radio) had disappeared.
I know that the advice is now to reformat the Hard Disk, but that would mean losing everything else, so I’m going to soldier on until we’ve cleared the backlog.
From what I’ve read, people have different theories about the cause, but the one common factor seems to be that the disc is over half-full at the time.
I've e-mailed Humax asking if they are any nearer finding the fix and I await their reply
We left it late in the evening recording two programs. The next day the two 'new' progs were there - the other half dozen or so weren't. The disc is showing about 40GB used so they are probably still there.
So the disc was nothing like half full and I had never had the beast hooked to a computer. So those two theories are looking shaky.
It had been OK since last October, until I set the auto-on timer a about 10 days ago following which it got the 'thinks its recording' bug. So I dropped the timer. A couple of nights later I was watching late and at midnight it said it would auto-off unless I wanted to continue watching (WTF? I never set the auto-off). A few days later it dumped the recordings, and now I think on it I'm fairly sure one of them went on past midnight. I wonder ...
At this point I did cart the beast over to the PC for the first time, downloaded the latest eLinker, and had a look to see if I could rescue the recordings. But it could only see the two new ones. For now I have left it as is in the hope that a software update might 'revisualize' these ghosts.
I did the restore default settings because one of my tuners seemed to have disappeared after my 9200 carried on recording after the set time, and needed re-booting to stop. It clearly states in the manuel that restoring default settings will loose the channel list etc but that "no information on the hard drive will be lost"
DO NOT BE FOOLED.
I have lost everything (although as many of you state, the disc still tells me its 3/4 full)
I'm not re-formating - just in case, but I am resigned to the fact that I have lost everything
NOT HAPPY
To understand whats going on you need to know the format the disk uses is it a FAT Linux ?
If the disk is still showing data either the file headers may have been deleted which may be asy to recover from using pretty standard undelete tools or it could be the file allocation tables are corrupt. Neither of these things should normally happen . I have only once in 10 years have had a FAT table corrupted on a PC.
can anyone answer this? I certainly can't!
I'm not re-formating just in case!!!
IF you want the space on the disk you might as well re-format.
Based on the length of time that Humax have known about this problem and the lack of a fix so far I wouldn't rely on them bringing out a fix anytime soon.
I don't think that anyone has yet managed to retrieve any data after this problem.
Some of us have recovered recordings. Sometimes recordings we didn't actually want instead of new ones we did! You can get them by making sure the filesys is corrupt then a time consuming process of recording short files, editing them and grabbing in eLinker. Its a random process with no control and every file you recover gets damaged by it... I don't recommend you even try unless there's something desperately important on the drive.
My guess is the corruption is related to the half assed hacks they bolted on to run eLinker, the persistent inability to keep the 9200 and eLinker views of the recordings in sync on my machine is a massive clue that Humax seem uninterested in exploring.
12.00 – 12.01 Channel 4
12.02 – 12.03 Channel 4
12.04 – 12.05 Channel 4 etc
When you try to play each recording, it will play the first minute of the new recording followed by all but the first minute of one of your lost recordings.
However, this only works if your lost recording was on the same channel as your new recording. If it wasn’t, you will get an error message after playing back the first minute of the new recording. I suppose, in theory, it would be possible to recover all of your recordings if you kept a record of what you recorded.
Occasionally the box may play back a new recording and then stop. I think this may occur when the new recording replaces a recording that you deleted before the recordings were lost.
April 1st saw new software release for the 9200t, as seen on the Humax website.
I got really optimistic that HUMAX had solved the lost recordings issues, until I looked at the fixes this new version offers:
PGXTF 1.00.04
1. Fixed hang up problem.
2. Fixed no sound problem on recordings.
3. Improved radio recordings.
4. Improved editing scheduled recordings.
5. Fixed MP3 Playback problem on the SPDIF connection
Don't think I'll bother downloading it (no Freeview OTA).
Really was a April Fool!