Good episode I feel. Not as good as last week, but an interesting end to the story.
I don't get why people are still complaining about the music....I never really notice it ever and certainly have never had the problem of not hearing the dialogue because of it. It appears it's the same people complaining about this problem since the first episodes last series while the vast majority of us are not having problems....surely this points to problems with the individuals TVs/hearing rather than a problem with the programme...???!
I thought last week's was good but this week's was better - just goes to show what a diverse bunch we are.
I've never had a problem with the volume of the music.
Originally Posted by Mulett
One thing - I get that Rose was told she would die in battle. But didn't Satan also tell the Doctor he was responsible for destroying his own home world? I can't find any one else talking about it on this thread so maybe I misheard, but it sounded like he was revealing something pretty bad - that the Doctor not only destroyed the Daleks but Gaillfrey as well.
I shall be watchin it again tonight, as i watched on friends tv yesterday, an picture wasna the best......but am pretty sure he said "Doctor, who killed his own people."
Actually, that was the impression I received too. I thought the Doctor had been responsible for the end of the Time Lords AND that Rose would die in battle ...
S1E6? Not all of us liked CE enough to buy the expensive DVDs
These past two epsodes have been superb, in my opinion the best two of the entire series. I just feel that its so much nicer when you've not got RTD trying to cram far too much into too little time. He's written some pretty good episodes (I really enjoyed Tooth and Claw), but this was far superior to any of his stuff from this series. I'd even be tempted to suggest more two parters next season. Also loved seeing a story not set on Earth for once, hopefully they'll take a few more pointers from this for series 3, get out to a few more alien worlds and so on.
Also noticed the captain's 'Torchwood' reference, and I guess they must be building up to Rose's eventual exit with the predictions of her death.
Vey much enjoyed though the homage-o-meter was going haywire and the ending was a bit deus-ex-machina (unless I missed some clever plot point about why he happened to just run into the TARDIS?
How did it end up in the pit, it was closed before?
the scene with the Doctor falling into the pit was very B5 'Z'Had'um'.
Yes, the Doctor took a leap of faith.
I felt the B5 connection too - the fact that the Beastie had been imprisoned by someone or something older than the Universe itself was another connection.
We only had oblique references to the year this episode was set so it's impossible to tell exactly when, but Torchwood was destroyed at some point in the future (Bad Wolf) so it may be that 'Torchwood Archive' is all that is left of the institute by this time.
The date was given as 45K 2.1
(Not 25K 2.1 as was said in the IP Thread).
This was said at least a couple of times when peoples deaths were recorded so I think we can safely assume it was the date.
I know this could be a totally different dating system to the current one but if the 45K refers to the year 45,000 AD (or the 450th Century) then that would place it long before "Bad Wolf" which took place in the 2001st Century.
It does sound though as if TORCHWOOD is something like a Museum in this time period (that finances Deep Space Exploration) rather than an Active Organisation to deal with Alien Threats.
That is of course if it is meant to be the same TORCHWOOD, no reason why 2 or more organisations could not have the same name over a period of 45000 years.
Still dislike DT though - the inchorent cockney babel, the shouting, the stupid facial expressions. He just isn't my Doctor.
When he looks angry, he reminds me of Troughton.
Or an impression of that..
I don't know, DT didn't look too intelligent to me.
My Doctor is always Peter Davison (and Tom Baker of course). If only Peter Davison would be back in the role as an older Doctor Who, it would be great.
How did it end up in the pit, it was closed before?
I thought the ending was superficial..
(just break the vase...)
It needed more depth.
But the depth was in the emotional impact. He had to choose whether to sacrific Rose to stop the 'devil' escaping or let her get away but possibly unleash a great evil onto earth. A momentous decision for him to have to make... Then ultimately he had enough belief in Rose to know she wouldn't just be sitting around and letting things happen... that she would do something at her end to get herself out of the situation OR if she couldn't then he knew her choice would be to sacrifice herself for the rest of mankind - she's done it before after all.
Why can't the tenth Doctor accept that there was something before our universe, when the fifth Doctor met the poor unfortunate soul who created it (and destroyed his own) in Terminus?
Memory loss.. that explains everything. Or the writers not remembering everything which happened before, more likely..
and maybe some of the stuff which wasn;t explained will become apparent in later episodes (maybe 12 and 13)? After all, the beast knew much about the Doctor, and also said that Rose would die in battle.
Either that, or setting things up for series three.
Anyone else think Ida Scott may be a future companion? The Doctor made a point of saving her when he could have saved a whole bunch of Oodles (he only had time for one trip.)
Plus there was some mystery surrounding her father, wasn't there? Always nice to have a companion with a bit of mystery about them.
What nonsense... series one was far more guilty of having Rose do more than the Doctor. This series their roles are far more evenly balanced. And why can't Rose have an equal role to the play with the Doctor? I thought this ep in particular was great in that even separated from each other they were still working together.
And for anyone bored by the 'Touching the Void' scene... it was beautifully written and acted, visually it looked stunning and far far better than scenes of shooting and explosions that a lot of other sci-fi shows resort to... in order to avoid having to write emotion. That scene was easily the best few minutes of TV this week
And that's what's so good about this series and DT - it's full of human emotion
That is what is so bad about this series. The doctor is not human - he does not have human emotions. He has a bit of an affinity with the human race but it does not define him. All this human emotion and introspection is dragging the series down the tubes.
Rose was a novelty in the last series and in my (nonsensical opinion:rolleyes: ) she was kept in her correct place by Christopher Ecclestone`s more authoratitive doctor. This time around she is stuck with DT and they are trying to give the impression she is almost the doctor`s equal. She isn`t and never will be.
This was said at least a couple of times when peoples deaths were recorded so I think we can safely assume it was the date.
I know this could be a totally different dating system to the current one but if the 45K refers to the year 45,000 AD (or the 450th Century) then that would place it long before "Bad Wolf" which took place in the 2001st Century.
It does sound though as if TORCHWOOD is something like a Museum in this time period (that finances Deep Space Exploration) rather than an Active Organisation to deal with Alien Threats.
That is of course if it is meant to be the same TORCHWOOD, no reason why 2 or more organisations could not have the same name over a period of 45000 years.
That's what I meant by oblique - we have a date which we could speculate to mean any number of things, but we don't *know*. All we can safely assume is that it is the distant future.
Either that, or setting things up for series three.
Anyone else think Ida Scott may be a future companion? The Doctor made a point of saving her when he could have saved a whole bunch of Oodles (he only had time for one trip.)
Plus there was some mystery surrounding her father, wasn't there? Always nice to have a companion with a bit of mystery about them.
He also said that he hoped to meet her again (or something like that).
That is what is so bad about this series. The doctor is not human - he does not have human emotions. He has a bit of an affinity with the human race but it does not define him. All this human emotion and introspection is dragging the series down the tubes.
Rose was a novelty in the last series and in my (nonsensical opinion:rolleyes: ) she was kept in her correct place by Christopher Ecclestone`s more authoratitive doctor. This time around she is stuck with DT and they are trying to give the impression she is almost the doctor`s equal. She isn`t and never will be.
I knew someone would throw that argument into the mix! The human emotional content is what got the show re-commissioned in the first place and is what is keeping it so successful - certainly not going down the tubes. In fact it's essential and if it wasn't there I certainly wouldn't be watching. My usual dislike of sci-fi is down to the lack of realistic emotional content. The Doctor might not be human but he has taken human form and choosen to travel with humans and interact with humans for the last however many years, to the extent that he's taken on all those human characteristics.
Plus everyone watching the show is human (we'd hope anyway!) so of course we're interested in the 'humanity' of the Doctor as opposed to his alienness.
I always found the CE/Rose relationship to be a little creepy.... forty something guy hanging round with a 19 year old girl... it was all a bit uncomfortable and grubby. Her relationship with DT feels so much more real, achievable and therefore ultimately more tragic.
Plus why can't she be the Doctor's equal? She is and she can and I for one applaud that.
I knew someone would throw that argument into the mix! The human emotional content is what got the show re-commissioned in the first place and is what is keeping it so successful - certainly not going down the tubes. In fact it's essential and if it wasn't there I certainly wouldn't be watching. My usual dislike of sci-fi is down to the lack of realistic emotional content. The Doctor might not be human but he has taken human form and choosen to travel with humans and interact with humans for the last however many years, to the extent that he's taken on all those human characteristics.
Plus everyone watching the show is human (we'd hope anyway!) so of course we're interested in the 'humanity' of the Doctor as opposed to his alienness.
I always found the CE/Rose relationship to be a little creepy.... forty something guy hanging round with a 19 year old girl... it was all a bit uncomfortable and grubby. Her relationship with DT feels so much more real, achievable and therefore ultimately more tragic.
Plus why can't she be the Doctor's equal? She is and she can and I for one applaud that.
I have no objection to the doctor displaying human traits but this time around he seems more human than time lord and that - to me - is a bad thing. Same thing with Rose. She can never be his equal because she hasn`t the brains, she isn`t a time lord and has not lived as long as he has nor experienced the traumas that he has. There should not be even the remotest suggestion that she is anywhere near his equal.
Anyway, we seem to be going around in circles so........
Nods and winks? Hmm, not sure it went that far. If you want complete originality week in , week out on a family sci fi show, then nothing ever will provide it. I'm more than happy to be taken on a very good ride though through different times, settings etc - that provides the originality to me. These 2 episodes were great and provided some great and, at times, chilling imagery along with some superb set work. I loved the fact it was unresolved. I hate the way people seem to thing every detail should be explained and the great point to this was that the doctor didn't have a clue what/who the beast was.
Jim
I think what sometimes happens is that we start to build an expectation of the upcoming episodes, which tends to overshadow the actual thing.
My opinion on this episode is that it was good overall (the ood scenes were great), but I thought the ending was too 'easy' for my tastes. The Doctor should lose the TARDIS for more than a two-parter.. And he should lose it to someone else preferably next time, otherwise it will just be a plot device.
Make the Doctor work to find it again, he would have to go to some different time and place, without a convenient TARDIS.
Another wopper from Alrightmate! I'm pretty sure you can get your point across in a few sentances and save yourself a lot of time.
Hmm. Sci fi (Battlestar Galactica especially) always feels like that for me. I actually thought there was a lot of good imagery at use. The eyes, the skin with the writing, the beast itself.
I love the borrowing bits from sci fi point. We have a sci fi show which, largely, has reinvented this particular show and covers themes seldom touched in Sci fi. This gets up the noses of traditional sci fi fans and fans of Doctor Who because its not proper sci fi and more soapy (a term i hate as well - its not soapy) etc. As soon as we have an episode set on a space station its now borrowing from other sci fi shows and thats a cop out. Whilst what your saying itsn't strictly wrong, if star trek / Galactica / Doom etc etc are allowed to do this then why can't who. After all, it gave us 2 superb episodes! Futhermore, a lot of sci fi borrowed concepts from Who. Why not return the favour once in a while!
Like your posts! Seriously, you're reading too much into it. Look at the diversity this series has provided. New Earth, Queen Victoria, Madamde Pompidou, K9+Sarah Jane, The Devil(maybe!) etc. This isn't plot writing by numbers.
Wasn't too much really. The scenes brought in a lot of tension.
Did you not see the people being killed? Did the scene where they cut the oxygen flow not provide enough death for you? Your point makes no sense at all. If anything, i thought there was too much death here. It didn't feel safe at all.
I can tell you don't like it, because you made the same point 4 times in your post! I have no problem with it. It provides an explanation as to why the doctor spends so much time on earth.
Does it really matter - it wasn't the point of this episode. To me, its no differerent to the enterprise crew not being able to beam out of a planet when in danger because of some time of interference. It was a plot device so there was no quick and easy way off the station.
It doesn't matter!
He he. No - it didn't look believable. But these things never do in Sci Fi. We've seen people being sucked out of space craft many times and its always been done this way.
Yes, you already said that above.
Superb! The fact the you think it was underused means that it was used just right! Its often best to keep us wanting more. And the fact it was almost a mute was sufficiently explained and actually added something to it. And the guy who played the person who was taken over by the devil creature played it much better than the CGI character ever could. In fact, he was superb and managed to contrast the too characters very well. Chilling at times actually.
Nods and winks? Hmm, not sure it went that far. If you want complete originality week in , week out on a family sci fi show, then nothing ever will provide it. I'm more than happy to be taken on a very good ride though through different times, settings etc - that provides the originality to me. These 2 episodes were great and provided some great and, at times, chilling imagery along with some superb set work. I loved the fact it was unresolved. I hate the way people seem to thing every detail should be explained and the great point to this was that the doctor didn't have a clue what/who the beast was.
Jim
Oh f*ck this, I've had enough.
I've seen the snidey remarks throughout this thread directed towards anyone who is a bit critical.
Somebody says they thought it was crap, somebody treats them like a troll and tells them that they should explain their opinions.
Do people get this treatment if they just simply say "Excellent episode"?
I try to explain my opinions thoroughly, yet I am criticised for my post being too long.
Do people get criticised who give a lengthy review which is positive, such as Black Guardian's very good well written review on the previous page?
Either way is not good enough. Write it too short and you get snidey digs at you. Write it too long and you get snidey digs at you.
I'm sick of the goading and mocking of people who are critical of certain episodes, I've just had enough of it now.
And it's just as bad when people point you towards popularity polls or viewing figures to imply that your opinion must be wrong.
I write pretty thorough posts about episodes that I like as well...they are ignored. (Maybe because it's 'on message')
I apologise if I may have repeated one or two things, I try my best. I have a dyslexic illness and I find it very difficult to write at all. Even short posts take a long time to construct and put together.
I said what I did like as well as what I didn't. I rated the episode 'Good'.
So I've had enough now and am leaving these Doctor Who threads, I don't plan on coming back any time soon.
There are some friendly people on here that I will keep in touch with via PM if they want to, like Den Watts, Black Guardian, The Slug..and a few others. But I cannot post on here anymore.
I'm always getting someone having a go at me, mocking me, or being snidey with me. And today isn't the best day to get more of this. I haven't provoked anybody, so why are people being like this as soon as anybody is critical?
I admit that I've been worn down,...you've won.
So here you can have your fan forum back.
It's not really a friendly place anymore.
I've seen the snidey remarks throughout this thread directed towards anyone who is a bit critical.
Somebody says they thought it was crap, somebody treats them like a troll and tells them that they should explain their opinions.
Do people get this treatment if they just simply say "Excellent episode"?
I try to explain my opinions thoroughly, yet I am criticised for my post being too long.
Do people get criticised who give a lengthy review which is positive, such as Black Guardian's very good well written review on the previous page?
Either way is not good enough. Write it too short and you get snidey digs at you. Write it too long and you get snidey digs at you.
I'm sick of the goading and mocking of people who are critical of certain episodes, I've just had enough of it now.
And it's just as bad when people point you towards popularity polls or viewing figures to imply that your opinion must be wrong.
I write pretty thorough posts about episodes that I like as well...they are ignored. (Maybe because it's 'on message')
I apologise if I may have repeated one or two things, I try my best. I have a dyslexic illness and I find it very difficult to write at all. Even short posts take a long time to construct and put together.
I said what I did like as well as what I didn't. I rated the episode 'Good'.
So I've had enough now and am leaving these Doctor Who threads, I don't plan on coming back any time soon.
There are some friendly people on here that I will keep in touch with via PM if they want to, like Den Watts, Black Guardian, The Slug..and a few others. But I cannot post on here anymore.
I'm always getting someone having a go at me, mocking me, or being snidey with me. And today isn't the best day to get more of this. I haven't provoked anybody, so why are people being like this as soon as anybody is critical?
I admit that I've been worn down,...you've won.
So here you can have your fan forum back.
It's not really a friendly place anymore.
Awwwww:( ..........I for one always enjoyed reading your views, even though I didn`t always agree with them. Hope you change your mind.
will be sad to see you go, as a lot of your posts have aired my thoughts in the past regarding certain episodes, and your posts, along with Dens, BG, The Master, were the ones that made me jump in in the first place to start postin in the cult forum.
I have no objection to the doctor displaying human traits but this time around he seems more human than time lord and that - to me - is a bad thing. Same thing with Rose. She can never be his equal because she hasn`t the brains, she isn`t a time lord and has not lived as long as he has nor experienced the traumas that he has. There should not be even the remotest suggestion that she is anywhere near his equal.
Anyway, we seem to be going around in circles so........
Fair enough but I want the Doctor to act as human as possible. It makes him a much more interesting and fallible character. How can we relate to him unless he acts in a human-like way?
Rose might not have lived as long or had as many 'adventures' but she's his equal emotionally because she IS human and therefore all the emotions that the Doctor is now struggling to deal with come to her naturally. She can understand emotional trauma and human desires just as well - if not better - as he can and therefore she is his equal in that respect.
Why is that a bad thing? Personally I don't care that much of DW history and what the Doctor should or shouldn't be like... it's interesting but I don't actually remember that much. This is a whole new show and if it 'breaks' rules or plays with the continuity for the sake of good drama then I'm more than happy. When I watch a re-run on UKGold the old series leaves me a little cold because it lacks the emotional depth the show now has... The old series is interesting back story but isn't and should never be a shackle for the new series to do whatever it likes
Surely that was the difference between his physical and mental capabilities. Physically, he was unable to prevent Rose doing what she did. It might have been interesting to see a more mental battle going on though, with Rose still managing to resist him (which would give us more plot to chew on!)...
K
Which would have been very Kinda-like, I think. Not that it would have been bad.
Comments
I've never had a problem with the volume of the music.
I shall be watchin it again tonight, as i watched on friends tv yesterday, an picture wasna the best......but am pretty sure he said "Doctor, who killed his own people."
David
In which case have a read over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_War_%28Doctor_Who%29 which pretty much summarises what is actually known about the Last Great Time War.
These past two epsodes have been superb, in my opinion the best two of the entire series. I just feel that its so much nicer when you've not got RTD trying to cram far too much into too little time. He's written some pretty good episodes (I really enjoyed Tooth and Claw), but this was far superior to any of his stuff from this series. I'd even be tempted to suggest more two parters next season. Also loved seeing a story not set on Earth for once, hopefully they'll take a few more pointers from this for series 3, get out to a few more alien worlds and so on.
Also noticed the captain's 'Torchwood' reference, and I guess they must be building up to Rose's eventual exit with the predictions of her death.
How did it end up in the pit, it was closed before?
I thought the ending was superficial..
I felt the B5 connection too - the fact that the Beastie had been imprisoned by someone or something older than the Universe itself was another connection.
The date was given as 45K 2.1
(Not 25K 2.1 as was said in the IP Thread).
This was said at least a couple of times when peoples deaths were recorded so I think we can safely assume it was the date.
I know this could be a totally different dating system to the current one but if the 45K refers to the year 45,000 AD (or the 450th Century) then that would place it long before "Bad Wolf" which took place in the 2001st Century.
It does sound though as if TORCHWOOD is something like a Museum in this time period (that finances Deep Space Exploration) rather than an Active Organisation to deal with Alien Threats.
That is of course if it is meant to be the same TORCHWOOD, no reason why 2 or more organisations could not have the same name over a period of 45000 years.
When he looks angry, he reminds me of Troughton.
Or an impression of that..
I don't know, DT didn't look too intelligent to me.
My Doctor is always Peter Davison (and Tom Baker of course). If only Peter Davison would be back in the role as an older Doctor Who, it would be great.
But the depth was in the emotional impact. He had to choose whether to sacrific Rose to stop the 'devil' escaping or let her get away but possibly unleash a great evil onto earth. A momentous decision for him to have to make... Then ultimately he had enough belief in Rose to know she wouldn't just be sitting around and letting things happen... that she would do something at her end to get herself out of the situation OR if she couldn't then he knew her choice would be to sacrifice herself for the rest of mankind - she's done it before after all.
How on earth is that superficial?
Memory loss.. that explains everything. Or the writers not remembering everything which happened before, more likely..
Anyone else think Ida Scott may be a future companion? The Doctor made a point of saving her when he could have saved a whole bunch of Oodles (he only had time for one trip.)
Plus there was some mystery surrounding her father, wasn't there? Always nice to have a companion with a bit of mystery about them.
That is what is so bad about this series. The doctor is not human - he does not have human emotions. He has a bit of an affinity with the human race but it does not define him. All this human emotion and introspection is dragging the series down the tubes.
Rose was a novelty in the last series and in my (nonsensical opinion:rolleyes: ) she was kept in her correct place by Christopher Ecclestone`s more authoratitive doctor. This time around she is stuck with DT and they are trying to give the impression she is almost the doctor`s equal. She isn`t and never will be.
He also said that he hoped to meet her again (or something like that).
I knew someone would throw that argument into the mix! The human emotional content is what got the show re-commissioned in the first place and is what is keeping it so successful - certainly not going down the tubes. In fact it's essential and if it wasn't there I certainly wouldn't be watching. My usual dislike of sci-fi is down to the lack of realistic emotional content. The Doctor might not be human but he has taken human form and choosen to travel with humans and interact with humans for the last however many years, to the extent that he's taken on all those human characteristics.
Plus everyone watching the show is human (we'd hope anyway!) so of course we're interested in the 'humanity' of the Doctor as opposed to his alienness.
I always found the CE/Rose relationship to be a little creepy.... forty something guy hanging round with a 19 year old girl... it was all a bit uncomfortable and grubby. Her relationship with DT feels so much more real, achievable and therefore ultimately more tragic.
Plus why can't she be the Doctor's equal? She is and she can and I for one applaud that.
I have no objection to the doctor displaying human traits but this time around he seems more human than time lord and that - to me - is a bad thing. Same thing with Rose. She can never be his equal because she hasn`t the brains, she isn`t a time lord and has not lived as long as he has nor experienced the traumas that he has. There should not be even the remotest suggestion that she is anywhere near his equal.
Anyway, we seem to be going around in circles so........
I think what sometimes happens is that we start to build an expectation of the upcoming episodes, which tends to overshadow the actual thing.
My opinion on this episode is that it was good overall (the ood scenes were great), but I thought the ending was too 'easy' for my tastes. The Doctor should lose the TARDIS for more than a two-parter.. And he should lose it to someone else preferably next time, otherwise it will just be a plot device.
Make the Doctor work to find it again, he would have to go to some different time and place, without a convenient TARDIS.
Edit: oops somebody already said the same thing. Sorry.. if there was a delete I'd delete this.
Oh f*ck this, I've had enough.
I've seen the snidey remarks throughout this thread directed towards anyone who is a bit critical.
Somebody says they thought it was crap, somebody treats them like a troll and tells them that they should explain their opinions.
Do people get this treatment if they just simply say "Excellent episode"?
I try to explain my opinions thoroughly, yet I am criticised for my post being too long.
Do people get criticised who give a lengthy review which is positive, such as Black Guardian's very good well written review on the previous page?
Either way is not good enough. Write it too short and you get snidey digs at you. Write it too long and you get snidey digs at you.
I'm sick of the goading and mocking of people who are critical of certain episodes, I've just had enough of it now.
And it's just as bad when people point you towards popularity polls or viewing figures to imply that your opinion must be wrong.
I write pretty thorough posts about episodes that I like as well...they are ignored. (Maybe because it's 'on message')
I apologise if I may have repeated one or two things, I try my best. I have a dyslexic illness and I find it very difficult to write at all. Even short posts take a long time to construct and put together.
I said what I did like as well as what I didn't. I rated the episode 'Good'.
So I've had enough now and am leaving these Doctor Who threads, I don't plan on coming back any time soon.
There are some friendly people on here that I will keep in touch with via PM if they want to, like Den Watts, Black Guardian, The Slug..and a few others. But I cannot post on here anymore.
I'm always getting someone having a go at me, mocking me, or being snidey with me. And today isn't the best day to get more of this. I haven't provoked anybody, so why are people being like this as soon as anybody is critical?
I admit that I've been worn down,...you've won.
So here you can have your fan forum back.
It's not really a friendly place anymore.
Awwwww:( ..........I for one always enjoyed reading your views, even though I didn`t always agree with them. Hope you change your mind.
David
Fair enough but I want the Doctor to act as human as possible. It makes him a much more interesting and fallible character. How can we relate to him unless he acts in a human-like way?
Rose might not have lived as long or had as many 'adventures' but she's his equal emotionally because she IS human and therefore all the emotions that the Doctor is now struggling to deal with come to her naturally. She can understand emotional trauma and human desires just as well - if not better - as he can and therefore she is his equal in that respect.
Why is that a bad thing? Personally I don't care that much of DW history and what the Doctor should or shouldn't be like... it's interesting but I don't actually remember that much. This is a whole new show and if it 'breaks' rules or plays with the continuity for the sake of good drama then I'm more than happy. When I watch a re-run on UKGold the old series leaves me a little cold because it lacks the emotional depth the show now has... The old series is interesting back story but isn't and should never be a shackle for the new series to do whatever it likes
Which would have been very Kinda-like, I think. Not that it would have been bad.