I'm not sure that makes much sense - if they were sent out on Friday, how would Unbeatable find out they were faulty after they had sent them with CityLink? The CityLink number I was given was never at CityLink, so I'm guessing they were packaged ready for CityLink on Friday, but too late for CityLink pickup.
Perhaps when they arrived - remembering they've come from somewhere in the EU - they were supplied with those European 2-pin plugs and perhaps they stopped the boxes going out whilst they sourced replacement 3-pin UK ones.
Will a new thread be started for the Fusion, or do we think this thread will continue? Jswift has done a great job with the site for the Thomson, I wonder if someone else will do the same for the Fusion? What's the betting that the Fusion is a re-badged Thomson?
Will a new thread be started for the Fusion, or do we think this thread will continue? Jswift has done a great job with the site for the Thomson, I wonder if someone else will do the same for the Fusion?
Yes please, someone please do one. And if you don't have web space just create it all on your local drive, zip it up, and forward to me. What competition that would be. In most cases you can get free web hosting from your ISP.
What's the betting that the Fusion is a re-badged Thomson?
However, they both use the 4TV Interactive control software - as part of the EPG. This may be where some of the current limitations come in. If this software does the actual hard disk management then it might be why there's a 128GB limit to the disk drive, or why buffers aren't added to recordings when you're part way through a recording and hit record. Basically Thomson, AFAICT, designed the motherboard - based on STMicroelectronics STi5514 "Omega" chip, used a Grundig PSU supplied by Samsung, and wrote some middleware to address the Omega - you know, setting TV screen size, changing channels, etc. This is how most manufacturers design their systems - using expertise and components from elsewhere when they don't have the expertise or manufacturing capability themselves. I have no other Thomson equipment so couldn't tell if they [Thomson] use other peoples PSUs in their other equipment.
The box is, no doubt about it in my opinion, a good try, but currently let down by noise (wrong fan configuration, basically that hard drive - and I've got one - doesn't generate much heat anyway), heat (inappropriate PSU - designed for a satellite receiver), and bugs in software which a child could have spotted - so the software wasn't QAed (Quality Assured), e.g. checked by someone other than the software developer(s). Hey, I have to have my scripts/software checked by someone else, so they should have too.
The software can be fixed. The fan can possibly be fixed in software. You know what my biggest concern is.... heat. I've told them if they can tell me another PSU - up to £80 - that I can use, I will. I'll invalidate my warranty to do so, and take all risks myself. The heat is really the only thing which bothers me. In the occasional heat-wave we have - just like today - I don't want any equipment pumping out heat like it doesn't really matter. It does. I'm a human being not a chip, and my tolerance isn't 60 degrees, it's uncomfortable around 25 degrees, and dangerous after 35.
But, a good box. And you know, I love the fact it's so compact. Get rid of the buttons, and most of the LEDs, and it would be great.
Anybody care to hazard a guess at the complexity and difficulty in changing the PSU. AFAIK it just needs 3.3v and 5v - what could possibly want +30v ! :eek:
If the Fusion uses 4FTV for its EPG and they are saying it will have a 14 day EPG, does that mean the THomson may get a 14 day one as well after a software update?
My guess would be that the EPG period is defined depending on the deal between Thomson & 4TV.
Needs to be 15 day really to allow for holidays.
Once the Freeview 7 day EPG is rolled out 4TV are going to have to add some value to give something extra. This may include such things as being longer (14 day), season passes etc. Box manufacturers may not enable these things for free although being good to their existing customers would certainly be good PR - especially with new types of devices such as DVR's / PVR's. Word of mouth advertising will pay a big part in early adoption when joe public won't know what these things are. I must have sold at least 3 of these for them in the last week!
Did I read Thomson are paying 4TV for the EPG? It could only be a stop-gap measure until the BBC 7-day EPG is fully working. This might allow the now/next to trigger the start too.
I've found a few occasions where the 4TV EPG gives scant detail about the series and in the London region at least, when "BBC London News" is on, the EPG shows "South East Today" (Skys is correct, which probably relies on BBC data).
A quick check on "Coupling" shows a generic description on the 4TV guide, the name of the episode is only given on the Sky EPG.
In general it's great to have it there, but the level of detail leaves a bit to be desired.
It could also depend on the memory capabilities of the receiver. The Thomson may only have enough to store 7 days worth of programming information whereas the Fusion has been equipped with more memory to cope with 14 days. It will also be dependent on what services Thomson and Fusion have each decided to subscribe to 4TV for I expect.
Just purchased the Thomson DHD4000. Like many others the biggest problem for me is noise.
Decided to investigate a bit more and remove lid. The fan is mounted under the Hard drive as we already know and is only cooling the hard drive and not the power supply due to the positioning. Next the hard drive is the 3 pin fan connector. Using a sound level meter positioned directly next to the outside of the fan I measured with fan connected and without fan to determine the noiseiest. With fan connected it measured 58dB and disconnected 56dB. Not as big difference as I expected but nevertheless it is louder. When the fan first kicks in it is really loud maybe 66dB but then winds down. Not sure if it is controlled by a thermal resistor and may get louder.
I sit about 10ft away from unit and it is still irritatingly noisy. The fan noise emanates from the bottom of the unit under the hard drive. The unit is mounted on top of my sky box which is in turn on a glass shelf. I tried moving this to the bottom position on top of the glass shelf. There was a slight difference in noise would suggest that the sky box was amplifying the sound slightly. Next I mounted it on some old sound deadening material I used for the laminated floor (5mm thick stuff). The noise reduced again very slightly and to be honest from my seating position I had to strain to hear it but still evident – I believe acceptable for me now – give it a few more days to see if it irritates me. Would the sound deadening affect the heat? Well it does not appear to – still really hot on the LH side (PS side) and still relatively cool on the RHS. I will monitor this over the next few days
Another method which I will investigate more would be to:-
Disconnect fan and leave it in place (as not to invalid warranty by breaking seal) and mount a chipset fan blowing out through the side vents next to the hard drive(possible 2, one sucking in and one blowing out). Use the 3 pin plug next to the hard drive. I think this would get more circulation through the unit and cool both hard drive and power supply plus ultimately be quieter. Found a 40mm fan that I believe would fit and would fix in place with either tyraps or sticky tape etc again as not to invalid warranty by breaking seals etc. http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_2531.html
Fan has a noise level of 25dB and cfm of 5.7. A lot better than the one fitted.
Hopefully they will soft mod to switch fan and hard drive off in stand by and it would be sorted.
Switching from wide screen all the time is also annoying – cannot disable in software so – cut pin 8 on scart now sorted
...Next I mounted it on some old sound deadening material I used for the laminated floor (5mm thick stuff). The noise reduced again very slightly and to be honest from my seating position I had to strain to hear it but still evident
So those speaker vibration cushions, or similar, might stop noise being transmitted, and resonating with the surrounding. I'm guessing that's mainly due to the fan as the hard disk shouldn't cause a whole lot of vibrations.
Hopefully they will soft mod to switch fan and hard drive off in stand by and it would be sorted.
This will leave the box still cooking due to their PSU. I firmly believe that the PSU is an inappropriate type. Either it's not powerful enough, or too powerful, or is dumping heat because the +30v lines, designed for satellite equipment, aren't under load so are just dumping their output as thermal heat instead of useful, typical, current draw. Great info on the fans, and having used one YS Tech fan before, I know they're good quality. I've also used Papst, Panaflo and a practically silent NMB. They were typically all 80cm, but it looks like positioning two fans, as you say, one drawing air in from the right, and one drawing air out through the right, running silently, would probably fix the sound and heat problem. Next problem is how to position - sure you can fix them with sticky Velcro strips, but will have to investigate clearance each side. I'm assuming 50cm is too big, so it'll have to be 40cm, but how thick?
My vote would go to this, plus dumping that PSU for a more environmentally-friendly, and in the case of our houses and flats, a more people-friendly one. There's a whole range of open-frame PSUs here: http://www.power-win.com/ind-openframe.htm.
For some it's a bit early to be modding the case, given that it'll invalidate the warranty, but just adding a couple of fans might be the most effective. Since there’s only one fan connector how would you splice or connect the two fans?
BTW, having not removed the HD myself, but how big is that blower fan, in diameter?
BTW, haven't ordered or seen a Fusion, but I do have a copy of the manual. It says it can record two channels at once, plus watch back one whilst two are recording - same as the Thomson. Plus..... it's got an external PSU ! Apprently it is/will be available from John Lewis and others - possibly not for another week or two. I'm guessing it won't be the same price in John Lewis as Unbeatable have. They open at 9:30am, and I've got to pop down to Peter Jones anyhow, so I'll have a quick look. Ang should be getting it today, from Unbeatable.
I have been looking for a PVR for a while, and continually waiting for the HUMAX Twin Tuner box which has been put back and back. I took the plunge on the weekend and went and purchased the DHD4000, mostly on the contents of the forum. Went to curry's and paid the £250 they were asking.
I couldn't be happier with the box, plugged it in on Saturday afternoon, it searched and picked up all the channels with better clarity than my old freeview box. Looking in the technical menu, I am only getting yellow bars in strength and quality. Saturday night left the box in standby and Sunday morning one 7day EPG was loaded.
I set up the recordings for the week, as well as recording a few programs on the fly, and was amazed at how easy it is to use.
The noise is a bit loud, but no more so than my Xbox, and I don't really notice it when the TV is on. I did hit my first bug last night, I made a recoding by setting the timer, it recorded but then didn't show up in the history list, solved with putting the box into standby.
There are a few other wishes which would be nice, but I am sure that they will be fixed through the software updates. But there is nothing that stops the box from doing what I expect. I'm also quite happy to mod the box as others find solutions to some of the problems that can't be fixed by software.
But people contemplating buying the box should just go and get it, theres always going to be something else around the corner thats better or does more, just look at computers, if I buy one today it will be out of date in six months.
30 pages of content and several spare moments later, I've finally got to the end of this thread, not that's its been a drag. I can't remember the last thread I read that has so many constructive comments. Time for me to pounce from the shadows and show myself.
Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this informative link. Who says forums are full of contradiction and conjecture. Not me anymore. As a potential PVR customer, the comments have been priceless.
I am in many ways in an enviable position. New to PVR I have not had to suffer the pain of waiting for the Fusion to be born as the first has now reached the doorstep of one of our fellow forum members, Bestbear.
I await with anticipation the clash of the titans, however overdramatic that may sound. The only thing that has held me back from buying a Thomson is the ever increasing number of people worried about the heat and noise. Having read this entire link in a matter of a few days, I can say this without fear of contradiction. I do however, truely hope that Thomson addresses all of your firmware-fixable concerns as this is clearly a quality product that has merely suffered a few teething problems. If the Fusion doesn't prove to be a winner, I am likely to return to the Thomson collective.
Can somebody confirm whether the DHD4000 can simultaneously output on the scart socket (main TV) and RF socket (distributed to other TVs? The manual appears to allow this, but I'd like to know for sure. Early days yet, but can the Fusion do it too?
Just been over to the other thread about the Fusion and downloaded the manual (thanks Jswift). I feel more positive about this because of the external PSU, however, it looks quite ugly to me. I don't think the Thomson is that good, but at least it does have those lovely rotating lights. The irritating thing is the nicest looking is the Humax, but that's not really a great deal of use (single tuner etc.).
Bugger, which one do I get?
Actually do we know who is stocking the Fusion other than unbeatable?
Is it twin tuner? "Simultaneous record and playback" doesn't necessarily mean playback of an in progress recording!
If Thomson fix the bugs and rough edges then I'll be happy. Currently the biggest irritations are:
1) Create thumbnails dialog
2) No practical way to save the pause point of a playback (I don't consider creating a thumbnail as practical - you have to create thumbnails to use it (so no 30 sec skip past adverts) and then find it amongst the auto created ones).
3) Guide should remember last channel when returning from schedule screen and and time view mode when returning to the guide.
4) Manual recording should save program name / description with the recording - grabbed from EPG or now and next when recording made.
5) Sound but no video bug
6) Video Plus support for manual recording when no EPG available
7) Desription should default to the channel name for manual recordings - to be substituted later as per (4)
Although designed for EPG use I would like to see better support for manual recording as above in case of a 4TV service interruption / holiday recording beyond 7 days / closure of 4TV service (could happen!). Although if the latter is the case a software upgrade to use the Freeview EPG would be good
Is it twin tuner? "Simultaneous record and playback" doesn't necessarily mean playback of an in progress recording!
I'm not sure about the twin tuner bit, but "Time Slip Function - Simultaneous Record & Playback " does imply playback of an in progress recording to me.
This will leave the box still cooking due to their PSU. I firmly believe that the PSU is an inappropriate type. Either it's not powerful enough, or too powerful, or is dumping heat because the +30v lines, designed for satellite equipment, aren't under load so are just dumping their output as thermal heat instead of useful, typical, current draw. Great info on the fans, and having used one YS Tech fan before, I know they're good quality. I've also used Papst, Panaflo and a practically silent NMB. They were typically all 80cm, but it looks like positioning two fans, as you say, one drawing air in from the right, and one drawing air out through the right, running silently, would probably fix the sound and heat problem. Next problem is how to position - sure you can fix them with sticky Velcro strips, but will have to investigate clearance each side. I'm assuming 50cm is too big, so it'll have to be 40cm, but how thick?
The fans appear to be 3 wires and come with a 3 pin plug which appears to be the same as the one used inside the box. Therefore hopefully it would be a matter of splitting the cables on the 2 new fans and wiring them in parallel and plugging in the new fans leaving the old fan is position. The fans are 10mm thick and 40mm diameter. The side next to the hard drive looks OK to fit but on the PS side the PCB is in the road. I am sure I could get round this with a little thought.
I had in mind of fixing with small tyraps through the holes on the fan mounting to the side vents of the box as a trial. The fans are only a couple of quid each so I am going to give it a try.
If the hard drive and fans is switched off via soft-mod would the power supply not cool down as it would not be under any load and therefore not produce so much heat?
...The fans are 10mm thick and 40mm diameter. The side next to the hard drive looks OK to fit but on the PS side the PCB is in the road...
Yes, virtually no room on the far left-hand side. An alternative would be to mount it to the direct right of the PSU.
If the hard drive and fans is switched off via soft-mod would the power supply not cool down as it would not be under any load and therefore not produce so much heat?
At present switching to standby does not result in any difference in heat output. Those Seagate drives take very little current - you could run it off a USB port ! You know, I'm wondering if it would still generate the same heat if the psu->motherboard connector was disconnected - but best not to try that unless you've absolutely sure. If a PSU generates heat even after the motherboard connector is disconnected wouldn't that indicate the PSU would always generate heat ?
Comments
However, they both use the 4TV Interactive control software - as part of the EPG. This may be where some of the current limitations come in. If this software does the actual hard disk management then it might be why there's a 128GB limit to the disk drive, or why buffers aren't added to recordings when you're part way through a recording and hit record. Basically Thomson, AFAICT, designed the motherboard - based on STMicroelectronics STi5514 "Omega" chip, used a Grundig PSU supplied by Samsung, and wrote some middleware to address the Omega - you know, setting TV screen size, changing channels, etc. This is how most manufacturers design their systems - using expertise and components from elsewhere when they don't have the expertise or manufacturing capability themselves. I have no other Thomson equipment so couldn't tell if they [Thomson] use other peoples PSUs in their other equipment.
The box is, no doubt about it in my opinion, a good try, but currently let down by noise (wrong fan configuration, basically that hard drive - and I've got one - doesn't generate much heat anyway), heat (inappropriate PSU - designed for a satellite receiver), and bugs in software which a child could have spotted - so the software wasn't QAed (Quality Assured), e.g. checked by someone other than the software developer(s). Hey, I have to have my scripts/software checked by someone else, so they should have too.
The software can be fixed. The fan can possibly be fixed in software. You know what my biggest concern is.... heat. I've told them if they can tell me another PSU - up to £80 - that I can use, I will. I'll invalidate my warranty to do so, and take all risks myself. The heat is really the only thing which bothers me. In the occasional heat-wave we have - just like today - I don't want any equipment pumping out heat like it doesn't really matter. It does. I'm a human being not a chip, and my tolerance isn't 60 degrees, it's uncomfortable around 25 degrees, and dangerous after 35.
But, a good box. And you know, I love the fact it's so compact. Get rid of the buttons, and most of the LEDs, and it would be great.
Anybody care to hazard a guess at the complexity and difficulty in changing the PSU. AFAIK it just needs 3.3v and 5v - what could possibly want +30v ! :eek:
Will
Needs to be 15 day really to allow for holidays.
Once the Freeview 7 day EPG is rolled out 4TV are going to have to add some value to give something extra. This may include such things as being longer (14 day), season passes etc. Box manufacturers may not enable these things for free although being good to their existing customers would certainly be good PR - especially with new types of devices such as DVR's / PVR's. Word of mouth advertising will pay a big part in early adoption when joe public won't know what these things are. I must have sold at least 3 of these for them in the last week!
I've found a few occasions where the 4TV EPG gives scant detail about the series and in the London region at least, when "BBC London News" is on, the EPG shows "South East Today" (Skys is correct, which probably relies on BBC data).
A quick check on "Coupling" shows a generic description on the 4TV guide, the name of the episode is only given on the Sky EPG.
In general it's great to have it there, but the level of detail leaves a bit to be desired.
Just purchased the Thomson DHD4000. Like many others the biggest problem for me is noise.
Decided to investigate a bit more and remove lid. The fan is mounted under the Hard drive as we already know and is only cooling the hard drive and not the power supply due to the positioning. Next the hard drive is the 3 pin fan connector. Using a sound level meter positioned directly next to the outside of the fan I measured with fan connected and without fan to determine the noiseiest. With fan connected it measured 58dB and disconnected 56dB. Not as big difference as I expected but nevertheless it is louder. When the fan first kicks in it is really loud maybe 66dB but then winds down. Not sure if it is controlled by a thermal resistor and may get louder.
I sit about 10ft away from unit and it is still irritatingly noisy. The fan noise emanates from the bottom of the unit under the hard drive. The unit is mounted on top of my sky box which is in turn on a glass shelf. I tried moving this to the bottom position on top of the glass shelf. There was a slight difference in noise would suggest that the sky box was amplifying the sound slightly. Next I mounted it on some old sound deadening material I used for the laminated floor (5mm thick stuff). The noise reduced again very slightly and to be honest from my seating position I had to strain to hear it but still evident – I believe acceptable for me now – give it a few more days to see if it irritates me. Would the sound deadening affect the heat? Well it does not appear to – still really hot on the LH side (PS side) and still relatively cool on the RHS. I will monitor this over the next few days
Another method which I will investigate more would be to:-
Disconnect fan and leave it in place (as not to invalid warranty by breaking seal) and mount a chipset fan blowing out through the side vents next to the hard drive(possible 2, one sucking in and one blowing out). Use the 3 pin plug next to the hard drive. I think this would get more circulation through the unit and cool both hard drive and power supply plus ultimately be quieter. Found a 40mm fan that I believe would fit and would fix in place with either tyraps or sticky tape etc again as not to invalid warranty by breaking seals etc. http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_2531.html
Fan has a noise level of 25dB and cfm of 5.7. A lot better than the one fitted.
Hopefully they will soft mod to switch fan and hard drive off in stand by and it would be sorted.
Switching from wide screen all the time is also annoying – cannot disable in software so – cut pin 8 on scart now sorted
My vote would go to this, plus dumping that PSU for a more environmentally-friendly, and in the case of our houses and flats, a more people-friendly one. There's a whole range of open-frame PSUs here: http://www.power-win.com/ind-openframe.htm.
For some it's a bit early to be modding the case, given that it'll invalidate the warranty, but just adding a couple of fans might be the most effective. Since there’s only one fan connector how would you splice or connect the two fans?
BTW, having not removed the HD myself, but how big is that blower fan, in diameter?
Any chance of getting a scanned version?.. I'm happy to do it but i'd need a copy first!!
Nick
But you've just cost my boss some productivity as behind my work I'm now comparing the Thomson manual and the Fusion one! ;-)
Looking forward to Ang's comments when the first deliverys finally come in!
So where's the rest of the noise coming from?
If it's the harddrive, then is there any hope of getting a quiet PVR?
I couldn't be happier with the box, plugged it in on Saturday afternoon, it searched and picked up all the channels with better clarity than my old freeview box. Looking in the technical menu, I am only getting yellow bars in strength and quality. Saturday night left the box in standby and Sunday morning one 7day EPG was loaded.
I set up the recordings for the week, as well as recording a few programs on the fly, and was amazed at how easy it is to use.
The noise is a bit loud, but no more so than my Xbox, and I don't really notice it when the TV is on. I did hit my first bug last night, I made a recoding by setting the timer, it recorded but then didn't show up in the history list, solved with putting the box into standby.
There are a few other wishes which would be nice, but I am sure that they will be fixed through the software updates. But there is nothing that stops the box from doing what I expect. I'm also quite happy to mod the box as others find solutions to some of the problems that can't be fixed by software.
But people contemplating buying the box should just go and get it, theres always going to be something else around the corner thats better or does more, just look at computers, if I buy one today it will be out of date in six months.
Happy Watching
Rob
Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this informative link. Who says forums are full of contradiction and conjecture. Not me anymore. As a potential PVR customer, the comments have been priceless.
I am in many ways in an enviable position. New to PVR I have not had to suffer the pain of waiting for the Fusion to be born as the first has now reached the doorstep of one of our fellow forum members, Bestbear.
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?p=2105107#post2105107
I await with anticipation the clash of the titans, however overdramatic that may sound. The only thing that has held me back from buying a Thomson is the ever increasing number of people worried about the heat and noise. Having read this entire link in a matter of a few days, I can say this without fear of contradiction. I do however, truely hope that Thomson addresses all of your firmware-fixable concerns as this is clearly a quality product that has merely suffered a few teething problems. If the Fusion doesn't prove to be a winner, I am likely to return to the Thomson collective.
Bugger, which one do I get?
Actually do we know who is stocking the Fusion other than unbeatable?
http://www.electricaldiscountuk.co.uk/itfx_product_details.php?pid=2905&PHPSESSID=02f7e2819c82ec4da3921d99831fe633
about the Panasonic TUTCH100 and they've just responded saying that they are expecting stock in the next 2-3 weeks!
Looks like the software might be based around the 4TV system aswell. Specs look similar, except chase playback is mentioned.
Another box to consider? Of course I could be "considering" forever at this rate!?!?
If Thomson fix the bugs and rough edges then I'll be happy. Currently the biggest irritations are:
1) Create thumbnails dialog
2) No practical way to save the pause point of a playback (I don't consider creating a thumbnail as practical - you have to create thumbnails to use it (so no 30 sec skip past adverts) and then find it amongst the auto created ones).
3) Guide should remember last channel when returning from schedule screen and and time view mode when returning to the guide.
4) Manual recording should save program name / description with the recording - grabbed from EPG or now and next when recording made.
5) Sound but no video bug
6) Video Plus support for manual recording when no EPG available
7) Desription should default to the channel name for manual recordings - to be substituted later as per (4)
Although designed for EPG use I would like to see better support for manual recording as above in case of a 4TV service interruption / holiday recording beyond 7 days / closure of 4TV service (could happen!). Although if the latter is the case a software upgrade to use the Freeview EPG would be good
I'm not sure about the twin tuner bit, but "Time Slip Function - Simultaneous Record & Playback " does imply playback of an in progress recording to me.
The fans appear to be 3 wires and come with a 3 pin plug which appears to be the same as the one used inside the box. Therefore hopefully it would be a matter of splitting the cables on the 2 new fans and wiring them in parallel and plugging in the new fans leaving the old fan is position. The fans are 10mm thick and 40mm diameter. The side next to the hard drive looks OK to fit but on the PS side the PCB is in the road. I am sure I could get round this with a little thought.
I had in mind of fixing with small tyraps through the holes on the fan mounting to the side vents of the box as a trial. The fans are only a couple of quid each so I am going to give it a try.
If the hard drive and fans is switched off via soft-mod would the power supply not cool down as it would not be under any load and therefore not produce so much heat?