Toshiba 100hz TV - poor picture quality via Sky+

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 14
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I have recently purchased a Toshiba picture frame TV - 36zp38. The picture quality via DVD is excellent, via terrestial arial OK, but via Sky not so good. The picture quality on the movie channels is good but not on digital BBC1, 2 etc.. Often the image appears to be broken up and when watching sport it is dreadful.

The signal quality is usually in the 70-80% zone.

I have had a TV engineer look at the set and I have been told that the problem is not with the TV but with Sky, in that the "bandwidth" used by Sky is not sufficient to drive a 100hz picture.

Of course Sky say that there is no problem.

Has anyone else got a similar problem with other 100hz Tv's? Is there a solution? :(

Comments

  • K3K3 Posts: 1,913
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    Have you set the Sky output to RGB?

    Is the Scart connector you have plugged the Sky Scart into RGB capable? Not all are, you need to read the TV handbook.

    Is the Scart lead you are using a good quality RGB capable one with individually screened leads?

    CVBS/PAL pictures will nearly always appear inferior to RGB.

    I have a 32", 100hz Philips widescreen TV running off the Digibox and the pictures are great (except ITV, but that's another problem).

    Kevin
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 18,132
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    jjwely wrote:
    I have recently purchased a Toshiba picture frame TV - 36zp38. The picture quality via DVD is excellent, via terrestial arial OK, but via Sky not so good. The picture quality on the movie channels is good but not on digital BBC1, 2 etc.. Often the image appears to be broken up and when watching sport it is dreadful.

    The signal quality is usually in the 70-80% zone.

    I have had a TV engineer look at the set and I have been told that the problem is not with the TV but with Sky, in that the "bandwidth" used by Sky is not sufficient to drive a 100hz picture.

    Of course Sky say that there is no problem.

    Has anyone else got a similar problem with other 100hz Tv's? Is there a solution? :(


    It is a well known problem that 100hz scanning can highlight defects in mpegII compressed digital pcitures regardless of the platform (SKY, Cable or DTT).
    The extra digital processing included in modern TV's can also make the problem worse although as indicated some manufacturers/models are better than others.

    As you have confirmed you will only be having problems with certain channels on the SKY D platform as the root cause is the bitrates used for the broadcasts, too low and a larger screen with 100hz will show defects that a smaller 50hz screen will not.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 14
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    Sky is set to RGB.

    The Scart socket is RGB comapible

    I have used a variety of Scart leads - including a ribbon scart cable,
  • K3K3 Posts: 1,913
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    I think the next step is to borrow a digibox and try it on your system, then you'll know one way or another what is wrong.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,473
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    Don't know about Toshibas, but Sony 100Hz televisions often have menu options to change the way they create the 100Hz picture from the 50Hz source, selecting a different option can improve matters.
  • vinnielovinnielo Posts: 8,342
    Forum Member
    Jarrak wrote:
    It is a well known problem that 100hz scanning can highlight defects in mpegII compressed digital pcitures regardless of the platform (SKY, Cable or DTT).
    My friend's got a Tosh(iba) 100Hz widescreen, and the edges of images look very messy.

    I agree it's this 100Hz that causes it.

    Thankfully, I've got a Sony 100Hz, and manages to reproduce a sharper picture.
  • Dan the VanDan the Van Posts: 1,015
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    jjwely wrote:
    I have recently purchased a Toshiba picture frame TV - 36zp38. The picture quality via DVD is excellent, via terrestial arial OK, but via Sky not so good. The picture quality on the movie channels is good but not on digital BBC1, 2 etc.. Often the image appears to be broken up and when watching sport it is dreadful.

    The signal quality is usually in the 70-80% zone.

    I have had a TV engineer look at the set and I have been told that the problem is not with the TV but with Sky, in that the "bandwidth" used by Sky is not sufficient to drive a 100hz picture.

    Of course Sky say that there is no problem.

    Has anyone else got a similar problem with other 100hz Tv's? Is there a solution? :(

    It is a know problem with SKY+ Pace Version 2 STB to give poor picture quality.

    Try a search here ----> PVR

    I have a Panasonic 100Hz tv which shares the problems you reported

    Dan
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13
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    we have a Toshiba 100hz 32 inch TV and sky runs excellently on it, no picture problems at all. strange???
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 18,132
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    cotti wrote:
    we have a Toshiba 100hz 32 inch TV and sky runs excellently on it, no picture problems at all. strange???



    Not really:)
    It explains why millions of people have no real problems with SKY since the range of viewing hardware is huge and even when the same TV is used they will be setup to suit the eyesight of the viewer and one person can spot a compression artifact from the other side of the room while another can see nothing wrong with a picture.
    The same applies to lip synic issues on the audio, some people seem to be very sensitive to the effect while others don't notice a few frames divergence.

    You also have to consider that for example BBC and ITV there are multipule regions so you are not always comparing like for like when viewing a channel and the fact that many subscribers will not be watching channels that really "skimp" on the bitrate and produce the worse pictures.

    I assume this variation in hardware/viewers perceptions is what creates the probalems and of course allows broadcasters save money and broadcast lower quality pictures since they know that it will only effect/bother a minority of viewers.
  • phelingsphelings Posts: 3,260
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    Whether you think your 100hz picture is good with SD is purely subjective.As suggested above,what you rate as satisfactory could be very poor to me.
    100hz processing introduces more faults than it solves.As with plasma sets,input a perfect picture,like dvd,and you get good results.But Sky Digital sacrifices quality,which could be as good as dvd,for more channels.Result : pixellation and other defects.100hz,and plasma cannot get around the general poor quality of Sky Digitals pictures.
    If you fail to notice any flicker on a 50hz set,you don't have to get 100hz simpy because itsthe latest thing as pushed by the salesman
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 14
    Forum Member
    K3 wrote:
    I think the next step is to borrow a digibox and try it on your system, then you'll know one way or another what is wrong.

    Have tried a different digibox and picture quality is still poor. Any thoughts.
  • RagnarokRagnarok Posts: 4,655
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    jjwely wrote:
    Have tried a different digibox and picture quality is still poor. Any thoughts.
    Their is only one thing you can do, moan at the broadcaster who's channels are broadcasting crappy quality.

    Weather they'll do anything about it is another thing.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 270
    Forum Member
    hi...if it's the toshiba model with an 'angled frame' and speakers at the base of the telly then yes i understand what you mean ...unfortunately that telly is great at showing the true quality of the image.i.e it's a great tv set, but the way the digital signal is encoded into the air means that there will appear to be a fuzz around the outside of objects when the digibox decodes it again...this can appear to be more promenant when watching distant moving things such as, football, cricket etc... only because the amount of fuzz visible can be close to the size of the object you are looking at..
    now the solution, have you heard of Euro 1080? Well it's the first step towards High Definition television reception in Europe and it's available now, but the catch is, it is a very limited service, only two stations available as yet.....
    anyway the satellite signal coming in from the dish is not of the best size 'bandwith' to start with but the real killer is the digibox itself taking a digital signal and converts it into an analogue signal so that you can watch it on your existing tv..your tv then shows up this imperfection...
    i don't know everything but in my experience try a different tv (one of similar size and without additional features, 100hz, comb filter, etc) and you'll be happy with the results with the sky when looking at moving objects but you'll get a better picture on the dvd, pc, and stationary pictures with the toshiba.So think about what comprimise you are willing to make...until Sky lauches High def in 2006 !!..
    Hope it helps..
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 93
    Forum Member
    The picture frame 2 tv is a very good tv (i have the 36" version).

    I use mine with a pace twin to recieve and time shift terrestrial digital
    TV.

    Unfortunetly the size and detail resolving capabilities of this TV are such that any compression artifacts in a digital TV picture will be instantly revealed.

    DVD is fine as the mpeg 2 encoding is at the full rate(8 to 10mbits).
    All the DVB variants Sat, Cable and terrestial provide an average
    bit rate per program of 4.5mbits.

    Given how mpeg compression works ie data is used to detail only the difference seen from one frame to the next, if you have less data rate available the changes which occur from one frame to the next cannot be properly /fully encoded thus the artifacts (long football shots show lots of artifacts/impairments).

    You also need to remember that the DVB standards werre ratified as long ago as 1995. The standards were set to be good enough for the majority of TV's around at the time.

    Therefore modern widescreen TV ' s of 32" or more are too revealing of DVB signals and will show up the artifacts.

    I should say that on fairly static / close up pictures the quality is very good. I dont watch analogue anymore, I like the widescreen programming and the fact that the pace handles the switching from 4:3 to widescreen automatically ( image is always full height), no more cycling around the screen formats. Pace loses nothing in recording and playback , unlike video.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3
    Forum Member
    I purchased a 32" Phillips 100 hz widescreen TV last year after fitting Sky+. I found that the quality on DVD's was fantastic, but on Sky channels(especialy sport) it was poor. I also tried different Scart leads with no success, after 2 days of worrying that i had spent £1500 on a crap TV i took it back and bought a 50 hz 32" widescreen TV, i am happy with this. My brother has a Toshiba 32pz38 picture frame tv and his picture on Sky is fantastic, his reception quality is very slightly better. I do think 100 hz TVs are overrated, in the shops they are showing DVD's which are good quality. Stick to 50hz or get a TV that is switchable between 50 and 100 hz for the best of both worlds.
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