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Analogue switchoff/BBC subscription
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After having read through this forum for a good four-five hours now (i could be doing some Business Studies homework, but this is much more benificial 
) i have two distinct questions:
1) When do you all think (or in the case of insiders "know") that the analogue switchoff will occur? I personally think it should come as soon as possible, as i am the type of person who hates (with prior experience) having to simulatenously manage two different systems.
2) When the switchover occurs, do you think it would be a good idea for the BBC channels/services to become a Top-Up TV-style subscription service?
) i have two distinct questions:1) When do you all think (or in the case of insiders "know") that the analogue switchoff will occur? I personally think it should come as soon as possible, as i am the type of person who hates (with prior experience) having to simulatenously manage two different systems.
2) When the switchover occurs, do you think it would be a good idea for the BBC channels/services to become a Top-Up TV-style subscription service?
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My opinion is 2015-2020. Far too many tuners needing replacing and technophobes who will hang in til the bitter end.
No! I think this would be a very bad thing for the viewer, the BBC and British TV generally. There are also the millions of FTA DTT boxes kicking about to contend with. However there are enough licence fee debates on here as it is :rolleyes:
If you don't then I think even 2020 is optimistic!
(I have just finished reading a number of the consultation documents and am feeling quite depressed about the whole thing - the most interesting one is by Nokia - it shoots down the idea of clearing spectrum - if the TV spectrum is cleared for 3G mobile 'phones - it would have to be the top end - and even then the client may find the size of aerial required a bit inconvenient! - you know how old-fashioned the American 'phones with pull-out aerials look - imagine ones with longer aerials than that!)
DTT boxes will be in museums - zDSL running at 6Gb/s providing HDTV on demand (ie a 2hour HDTV film download in about 5seconds) will have long replaced broadcasting by the time the Government has even decided when the switch-over will occur - let alone what to switch over to - the BBC being an internet only organization by then will be paid for by having a DOG with 'sponsored by microsoft' on the top right of every downloaded screen - the latest news 'broadcast' will be a down-load that is updated hourly rather than a programme broadcast hourly.
(BTW - interesting technical point - Nokia says that almost all - not just Nokia - DTT boxes manufactured after 1999 are 8K capable and they suggest using 2K SFNs in some areas)
The 'two systems' problem begins to dissappear when the digital signals are better than analogue - I only now watch analogue because the TV switches on to analogue and the missus screams if I make her miss a millisecond of a program by switching to digital - the fly in the ointment is the MHEG5 (text) problem - its too slow and clunky - so I still switch to analogue for teletext - philips' consultation submission discusses this and the switch over to MHP requiring extra bandwidth (both philips and Nokia say that the important thing in switch-over is to increase the bandwidth available to DTT as much as possible - the terrestrial channels, and sky!, assume that at least 14 channels will be cleared and waste their arguments on which channels to clear! - Ch4 spends its space on saying how much it has been forced to spend on digital and how it needs a mux of its own to get any sort of payback)
I also believe strongly that the BBC should not go encryption. If only for the fact that NDS will crack it and put the whole shebang at serious risk. Yeah it's a bit unfair to have to pay the Beeb if you have a telly no matter what you do with it, but the alternatives are much much worse.
Haha they'll be lucky - Nokia DTT boxes have trouble staying on for 2 hours never mind being "capable" LOL.
OK - it will be simulcast for a time - needing more bandwidth - so you will have to keep your fingers off the remote - and you won't have analogue TeleText to fall back on!
The number of boxes that don't handle text properly is probably down to the UK adopting a standard that no-one else has - so the boxes have to be special for the UK.
Sounds like internet downloads will be less troublesome!
The second time was yesterday when I was trying to go faster than the 7Day EPG was populating.....
Both times, the box has recognized it had crashed and rebooted itself, personally I think this is more than acceptable seeing how computers have a tendency to crash more often (well the one's running Microsoft do)
If the Internet TV service is to take off then perhaps it should run on something other than Windows...
It makes me laugh actually because there are lots of news articles kicking around now about how Microsoft wants to be powering our TV's....... can you imagine??
Sorry we can't watch Emmerdale tonight as the Channel Table has become corrupted by the Netsky2008.r/anti-soap/p.bugbear@TV64/t virus
1) The government has put a 'back-stop' date of 2012 - whether it is 1st Jan 2012 or 31 Dec 2012 who knows - but the assumption is that if everything goes wrong the analogue will be switched off then and digital will be the only method of transmission. If you haven't got a box by then its your fault not the governments!
2) Something will change - remember Channel4 is actually 'government owned' - how do we pay for it?
I suspect there will be a lot of talk - like for the Tax Disk on cars - every year it is going to be abolished - but it just changes a bit - perhaps the BBC will be paid for direct from the Government someday (the lottery?) but there is always resistance from the BBC to that as when they are abroad they want to make it known that they are independent of the government - not like other national broadcasters - and being paid directly by the government makes it difficult to keep a straight face when you say you are not doing the bidding of your paymasters.
Possibly if the BBC does migrate to the Net - which I do believe it will - as will other 'broadcasters' - then some sort of micro-payment system may be in use - ie 'pay-per-view' at say 1p per minute play or 30p per download Gbit or similar (please don't quote the figures - I just invented them a minute ago!) - a film taking 5seconds to download would run for say 2hours and cost £1.20 - £1.50 (paid via BT) with no adverts (on commercial channels if you accepted adverts then the cost would drop - so you could pay to have no adverts)
OFCOM know!
It is a condition withing the DRL that channels 3, 4, 5 and Teletext convert all 1154 UHF terrestrial TV tranmission sites for digital television broadcasting by "the end of 2012" ...
500 sites (all the main stations and the larger relay sites) are also to be capable of carrying subscription based DTT by the same date.
This will give UK PSB's access to 99.6% of UK households whilst subscription DTT (currently 'Top Up TV') will be available to 84%.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/past/drl/drl_condoc/?a=87101
The BBC may make BBC3 and BBC4 subscription channels in the future. They said this at one of the charter review meetings (it was on tv). But this wont happen for at least 10 years.
Dave
THE BBC MUST NEVER GO SUBSCRIPTION BASED, nor any UK PSB go subscription based. I do sometimes wonder if people realise how lucky we are. Is there any other broadcasting network worldwide where there are three financial concepts combined, license fees, advert financed and subscription. I will admit there are almost innumberable problems with the BBC, but the method of finance is not one of them. And I will admit the BBC is not my favourite subject at the moment, cos of their incompetence, but I think the idea of license fee based PSB was and still is the very best way to produce a genuinely nationally identifyable broadcaster, whether that is the BBC in the future is another matter, if it should be some other organisationm I leave others to decide, should the use of the resources provided by a license fee be radically altered, yes most definitely, how this is achieved I again leave to others. I won't say betters, cos the decision will probably be made by politicians.
Expect an official announcement after the General Election...but in the context of 'everbody knows the dates anyway',it will start 2008 and finish 2012 (by Dec 31st).
It will happen sooner than you think. You don't need a PC to receive TV through a broadband connection, just plug you new type box in and away you go.BT are bringing a box out in 2005 to stream their programing through B/B.
Switch on your DBB 'Digital Broadband Box'
A menu comes up on your screen (a bit like an EPG but larger) and you select the programme, film etc you want - and it starts!
The rate of take-up will be phenomenal when it starts - just because it will be so easy! Watch for a big contract like 'pace signs deal to supply BT with digital download boxes' or similar. The price at the beginning will be high just to try to slow the take-up.
The current local loop speed is too slow - but every day it will increase and at somewhere between 4-8Mb/s it will all start in earnest (ie Download faster than display rate).
In computing - higher network speeds has a double effect - you get everything faster - and you don't wait so long for the other guy - everyone wins - thats why the companies are pushing up speeds without charging more - its more efficient and they can increase the contention ratio without affecting the users - particularly when the download rate hits the display rate (you might call this the 'narrowcasting' threshold) - in broadcasting the download rate has to be exactly the same as the 'display' rate (if it varys between sound and picture then you get lipsync problems) - with (current) downloads its a lot slower and you have to buffer the programme (usually on a disk) till you watch it - with 'instant' downloads the 'broadcast' rate is higher than the display rate and so you can start watching immediately (a bit like the way PVRs work when you watch a currently broadcasting programme - the difference is the 'DBB' buffer has finished the recording of the download long before you've even finished watching the titles).
It will destroy any advances in 'Broadcasting' stone dead so unless the government hurries up - analogue will be switched of as like when the last person leaves the room!
Sky will have a bit off a problem too! (expect Sky to come to a deal with BT any time now - or to do something underhand to secure their 'revenue stream')
The take-up will be even faster than you may expect because every man and his dog who has broadband and a suitable computer will be able to use the software version from day one!
I think that making BBC1 (+2) free with everything else paid for will make people (foreigners) think that BBC1 is the government mouthpiece - the BBC won't have that!
Either BBC all FTA (in the UK) or all subscription!
I'm a technophile - but unfortunately most of the target audience is not - ALL boxes (of any type) are too complicated - they need to be simple like the original microwaves - on/off switch volume control and channel up/down select with channel name display on the box - select may be done in the window as the select button now does - teletext and anything else should be on the zapper (remote) under a cover - the controls should operate the TV too - ie volume is the tv volume.
Before you say this is too complicated (!) for the technology to achieve...
My old ONdigital Nokia stb and Akai TV do this...
Both on standby
Hit channel button on NOKIA remote
Nokia box starts up to last channel
Nokia box take TV out of standby !!!!
Watch TV
Change channels on Nokia remote
Adjust TV sound on Nokia remote (this bit only works with 3rd party zapper)
:
Put Nokia box to standby
NOKIA BOX PUTS AKAI TV TO STANDBY!
So we have two existing products that work together almost perfectly - the Akai TV is a 4:3 with auto switching which works too! (except sometimes for the postage stamp effect)
Pity about the way MHEG locks the Nokia box!!!
For the above scenario you only need on the zapper...
1) On/Standby
2) Sound Up
3) Sound Down
4) Channel Up
5) Channel Down
:
w) TV/STB
x) Sound Mute
y) Select (channel)
z) Now/Next
w - x - y - z are not absolutely essential
The TV/STB button does exist on the Nokia zapper and as long as you return to the STB before you go to standby the Nokia will pull down the TV
I don't think TV on demand (DBB if you like) will replace broadcasting before analogue switch off.
You can already get fledgling versions of what you described (see the HomeChoice forum just above this one!) and the number of customers who can be bothered is tiny. (If you forget the "on demand" part, it's just digital cable - whether it's IP or DVB-C based is probably irrelevant.)
Either way, free, time-linear, terrestrial broadcasting will always appeal to millions. It's free. It's there. Almost everyone can get it. Whether it's analogue or digital will be irrelevant. There's no contract. It can't be disconnected. It doesn't require interaction (the whole point of most TV - which sadly people have forgotten!).
As for sending video over IP - the way to make it really work, to let lots of people watch the same thing at the same time (which people often want to do) is to use multicasting. This means, at peak times, even a new flashy video-on-demand service will "revert" to being just a cabled digital broadcast system - often the "on demand" part will be irrelevant.
That's not to say there won't be a market. But for many, it won't kill "broadcasting".
Cheers,
David.
<http://www.belgacom.BE/private/en/jsp/dynamic/product.jsp?dcrName=hbs_belgacomtv>
You can argue the change points and other scenarios but I suspect the end points will be the same. The intermediate forms will never actually die as the equipment will not know the difference between a 'flash' download, a 'broadcast' download or low priority download (done in advance of viewing) the user may choose any form based on convenience and price (a 'broadcast download' may be say the News or a sporting event that you watch in real time - a 'low priority download' may be a soap you watch every day at sometime after you come home from work but downloaded during the day - at low cost - as soon as it becomes available). Broadcasting will never really die - but will become some kind of backwater - or be used as part of the (mobile?) internet or whatever is economic at the time.
The cost of the sattelite and terrestrial infrastructure will be amortised at some point and then the on-going repairs and renewals will eventually make it uneconomic to continue as the broadband/internet infrastructure will grow and get faster (whatever happens) and putting TV on it will become cheaper for the 'broadcasters'.
Note - of course that this is all my opinion about what will happen - it can happen as most of the technology is already available - like 6Gb/s internet II achieved between two universities in California last week! - 200Mb/s local loop UniDSL released by Texas Instruments not long ago - plans for BT to go XDSL soon etc. etc.
TV on demand - see below - and would you care to visit Hull? or Kingston Communications web site?
I typed in 'video on demand'
Results from your search: 66. Showing: 1 - 10.
RankName1
Set Top Box Broadband Service
... network PVC structure is set up in LCSE1. 10. SP Package D Combined Broadband Broadcast Video, Video on Demand and Internet/Web Service provider service set SP IF: n x 622Mbs, IP over ATM ... Service Provider/Server Access Interface IP over ATM (UNI)155Mb/s Single-mode fibre ports on a backbone router or switch IP over ATM (UNI) 622Mb/s Single-mode fibre ports ... 1. ATM PVC Bandwidth Options The KV Broadband Network Access Service provides Bandwidth required for video delivery from server to Set Top Box is approximately 4M Bits/Sec (constant bit rate ...
http://www.kcom.com/eastyorkshire/pricemanual/p13-s01_set_top_box_broadband.htm
... sorry the cut and paste wasn't to clever! - I've removed some of the formatting - but better for you to go and look!
'copper access network elements' - means your 'phone lines!
Also this is number 1 of 66 links!
Can it provide the same kind of picture quality as Sky & Freeview?
and, I must say, I cant see any existing broadband speeds being fast enough for streaming tv quality pictures. Sony were talking about this in regard to future games why you might buy on line and download (no DVD disc), but they were saying everyone who wanted to use it would require at least an 8Mb per sec broadband connection. Most existing BB users are still using less than 1Mb at the moment.
Dave
A lot of business users are on 4 and 8Mb/s ADSL (and SDSL) already - the copy of the link below says 4Mb/s is enough for streaming TV - 8Mb/s would do for HDTV (The A of ADSL is 'Asymmetric' - you download faster than you upload - ie the few things you type take longer to transmit to the exchange than the huge amount that comes from your ISP - Symmetric is the same speeds both ways)
Sky and freeview video is in the range of about - 5Mb/s (to too far) downwards! (is BBC1 fixed on 4.25Mb/s ???) so yes the quality can be as good if not better.
Games are a problem - you may have to download the lot before you start - because you don't exactly what the user is going to do - the trick is to get him to watch a long introduction and fill in a list of settings while it is downloading! It would be like downloading a film and the user looks at the end credits first!