BBC Freesat

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 8,464
Forum Member
When is the BBC's Freesat coming out + is there anywhere I can find out about it?

:rolleyes: E.R
«1

Comments

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,940
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Eh? The BBC just own the trademark, nothing else. Sky operate the scheme; and all it does is provide you with a card to decrypt 4 channels - none ofn which are BBC owned.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 8,464
    Forum Member
    Freesat

    According to Broadcast, the BBC is understood to be talking to set-top box makers with a view to launching its own proposition.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,940
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Story is over a year old, and nothing, nothing whatsoever has come with it.

    http://www.freesatfromsky.com is all there is, and all theres any indication of their being for quite some time. The BBC do own the "Freesat" trademark, though
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 8,464
    Forum Member
  • tv.marktv.mark Posts: 1,945
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    KianD wrote:
    Story is over a year old, and nothing, nothing whatsoever has come with it.

    http://www.freesatfromsky.com is all there is, and all theres any indication of their being for quite some time. The BBC do own the "Freesat" trademark, though

    The BBC are trying to get other broadcasters (ITV, C4, C5) on board with this. It's still an active project, despite the fact you haven't heard much about it.
  • LakeukLakeuk Posts: 1,779
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Thats a new story about ITV talking to BBC on a partnership - but you original post refered to a story that was 12 months old
  • D-J-SD-J-S Posts: 1,433
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    I can't see it being a threat to Sky though. It could maybe have Sky re-think it's pricing policy.
  • bramblebramble Posts: 533
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    D-J-S wrote:
    I can't see it being a threat to Sky though..
    The objective of this proposal is not to threaten Sky but to add another option to assist the UK's digital television project.

    The influential Voice of the Listener & Viewer pressure group has been pressing for this for some while. The following is summary.
    VLV Calls on Government and Ofcom to facilitate the Launch of a Free-to-Air Digital Satellite for the UK

    Viewers, broadcasters, manufacturers and the nation would benefit from the immediate launch of an independent free-to-air digital television satellite service, says Voice of the Listener & Viewer (VLV), the independent watchdog representing citizens and consumers in broadcasting.

    Government and Ofcom, the communications regulator, should work together to facilitate the immediate launch of an independent, digital satellite because it will benefit viewers - and every section of the industry, says VLV, by creating a competitive horizontal market in the provision and delivery of digital satellite services for the very first time. It would also facilitate the process of digital switch-over by removing some of the political pressures the Government will face if it is to meet its target of switching the UK from analogue to digital television by 2012.

    Ofcom is given the duty in the 2003 Communications Act of ‘furthering the interests of consumers in relevant markets where appropriate by promoting competition’. VLV’s proposition, which takes note of this duty and the lack of a horizontal market in digital satellite services, is based on the findings of a seminar held by VLV in May, immediately after the General Election, when the Government’s timetable for digital switch over was confirmed. Ofcom sees the process of switch over starting in the west and north of the UK in 2008 then proceeding, region by region, until it ends in the Channel Islands in 2012.

    One of the problems that the Government and Ofcom face, is that more than a quarter of UK households can not, and will not be able to, receive the free-to-air digital terrestrial television (DTT) service Freeview until after existing analogue transmissions are switched off. In the meantime, many of those who cannot receive Freeview on DTT will have to turn to BSkyB’s satellite service if they wish to watch the five public service broadcasters (PSBs) - the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Five and S4C. Sky currently provides a digital satellite service which includes all the PSBs and many other channels on a free-to-air basis. But the Sky service is encrypted and to access it users must obtain a Sky ‘solus’ viewing card which guarantees them free access only for the next five years. Viewers who sign up today, therefore, could face the risk of Sky withdrawing its card, or of a change in its terms, just at the time that switch over is completed.

    The launch of an independent free-to-air satellite would introduce for the first time, the benefits of a horizontal market with competition at every level of digital satellite delivery and access - the kind of horizontal market that is now serving DTT Freeview users so well.

    Among the benefits that a competitive horizontal market would bring are:

    For Viewers

    o a choice of delivery platforms and service providers
    o potentially lower costs
    o a larger choice of channels and services
    o a wider choice of receiving equipment
    o freedom from dependence on a ‘solus’ access card which has no guarantee of renewal after five years or of the terms on which it might be renewed

    For Broadcasters

    o the opportunity to appear on competing platforms
    o the opportunity to develop new software applications and services, including High Definition Television (HDTV)

    For Manufacturers and retailers

    o the freedom to develop a new market in digital receiving equipment

    For Government

    o easier implementation of its digital strategy because
    o it would remove the resentment many viewers’ currently feel because they are paying for the BBC’s digital channels via their TV licence fee whether or not they can access them
    o it would remove the controversy that would surround any forced migration to a DSat service provided by a commercial company, especially if associated with the loss of a solus card giving access to the Free-to-Air broadcasts of the public service channels of the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Five and S4C.

    Please see the press release of 17 June 2005 on "The Free-to-Air Transmission of Digital Broadcasts by Satellite" for full details. http://www.vlv.org.uk/docs/VLV-Free-To-Air-Digital-Satellite-Paper-20-06-05.doc
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 437
    Forum Member
    This is excellent news and I hope it gets somewhere this time. The digital switchover project in this country needs an independant (from Sky) free-to-air satelite service. There is demand for Freeview in many areasthat can not receive it but the majority of people aren't prepared to pay Sky £150. With an open system like this, a FreeSat brand could be created along the lines of Freeview with an ad campaign on the terrestrial channels and a website for more information. Manufacturers could create a range of different receivers for the UK market and like on the continent these could be obtained for a reasonable price in supermarkets and electrical shops.

    http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?class=countries&subclass=193&id=1123
  • D-J-SD-J-S Posts: 1,433
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Will there be an EPG at all? If so, who would run it?
  • SteveMcKSteveMcK Posts: 5,457
    Forum Member
    Tarq wrote:
    This is excellent news and I hope it gets somewhere this time. The digital switchover project in this country needs an independant (from Sky) free-to-air satelite service. There is demand for Freeview in many areasthat can not receive it but the majority of people aren't prepared to pay Sky £150. With an open system like this, a FreeSat brand could be created along the lines of Freeview with an ad campaign on the terrestrial channels and a website for more information. Manufacturers could create a range of different receivers for the UK market and like on the continent these could be obtained for a reasonable price in supermarkets and electrical shops.

    http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?class=countries&subclass=193&id=1123

    But if you buy one of the receivers that are already widely sold elsewhere in Europe, and connect it to a dish pointing at 28.2E, it will already "just work"(TM).

    The only thing you'd be missing would be an EPG (you'd have standard now&next), and look how long it took Freeview to get that together. If some "Freesat" consortium decided to create its own EPG it would need specialized satelllite receievers with appropriate software, and you'd be back to the equivalent of paying SKy 150quid.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 437
    Forum Member
    SteveMcK wrote:
    But if you buy one of the receivers that are already widely sold elsewhere in Europe, and connect it to a dish pointing at 28.2E, it will already "just work"(TM).

    The only thing you'd be missing would be an EPG (you'd have standard now&next), and look how long it took Freeview to get that together. If some "Freesat" consortium decided to create its own EPG it would need specialized satelllite receievers with appropriate software, and you'd be back to the equivalent of paying SKy 150quid.

    Yeah but you wouldn't get the 5 terrestrial channels plus the majority of the ones available on Freeview. Shops won't start selling those receivers until such a scheme is in place and people won't buy them until they are available over here and promoted to them. That's why we need a FreeSat consortium made up of big players like ITV and the BBC.
  • SteveMcKSteveMcK Posts: 5,457
    Forum Member
    Tarq wrote:
    Yeah but you wouldn't get the 5 terrestrial channels plus the majority of the ones available on Freeview. Shops won't start selling those receivers until such a scheme is in place and people won't buy them until they are available over here and promoted to them. That's why we need a FreeSat consortium made up of big players like ITV and the BBC.

    Youi don't need a consortium, you just need the individual players to take the same decision that the BBC did: stop encrypting.

    Of course, it's not quite that easy, ITV are contractually bound to Sky and the programme rights owners will have something to say, but basically it is down to each individual TV company. No need for a consortium or special box.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,865
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Tarq wrote:
    This is great news, but obviously Channel 4 really need to be on board with this. Channel 5 also but to a much lesser extent (given that five coverage is similar to Freeviews).

    There is an issue with cost, however, which is why I can't see it happening: ITV is paying £18M for encryption. They obviously need it, although some of their new rights deals seem to be FTA ones.

    If we assume they need to stay encrypted, we can also assume that NDS (News Corp *cough* Sky) wont lease their encryption system. So ITV will need to double the number of transponders that they have unless the move all channels to FTA and take the cost of increased rights on the chin.

    And channel 4? Can they move to FTA or a different encryption? I believe the encyption status on Sky is locked until 2008... so they too would need new transponders.

    There seems to be a shortage of transponders on 28E as HD services come online.

    What about interactive? I thought boxes needed to be specially designed for this function? All current systems are geared to use Sky's system.

    Regionalisation: How will this be done? Will there be a central registry or a card that you plug in saying what regions you can get? What about Ireland? Have the BBC met with RTE with regard to Northern Ireland. A freesat service may well serve Rep of Ireland well - offering DSAT without the large cost that Sky charge and sharing the costs.

    Maybe they should start talking to BT? opps, they wouldn't be allowed to do that would that.

    Can't see anything happening until 2008...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,550
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    SteveMcK wrote:
    If some "Freesat" consortium decided to create its own EPG it would need specialized satelllite receievers with appropriate software, and you'd be back to the equivalent of paying SKy 150quid.

    Not strictly true; many of the european broadcasters transmit several days of EPG data using DVB standards. Most boxes would be able to cope with at least (for example) a 3 day epg.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,367
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    D-J-S wrote:
    Will there be an EPG at all? If so, who would run it?

    Just use EIT-Schedule like on freeview
  • DickibobboyDickibobboy Posts: 2,033
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    will this be pointing at 28.2e or will it be a whole new way and wont it just be alot like freesat with the channels that are fta or ftv
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 932
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    SteveMcK wrote:
    Youi don't need a consortium, you just need the individual players to take the same decision that the BBC did: stop encrypting.

    Of course, it's not quite that easy, ITV are contractually bound to Sky and the programme rights owners will have something to say, but basically it is down to each individual TV company. No need for a consortium or special box.

    As I understand it ITV are only contracted with Sky for certain channels, and this is for a fixed period: its not an open-ended contract. Already, ITV3 and Men and Motors are not part of this contract and are being transmitted unencrypted.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 107
    Forum Member
    nobbynolan wrote:
    This is great news, but obviously Channel 4 really need to be on board with this. Channel 5 also but to a much lesser extent (given that five coverage is similar to Freeviews).

    There is an issue with cost, however, which is why I can't see it happening: ITV is paying £18M for encryption. They obviously need it, although some of their new rights deals seem to be FTA ones.

    If we assume they need to stay encrypted, we can also assume that NDS (News Corp *cough* Sky) wont lease their encryption system. So ITV will need to double the number of transponders that they have unless the move all channels to FTA and take the cost of increased rights on the chin.

    And channel 4? Can they move to FTA or a different encryption? I believe the encyption status on Sky is locked until 2008... so they too would need new transponders.

    There seems to be a shortage of transponders on 28E as HD services come online.

    What about interactive? I thought boxes needed to be specially designed for this function? All current systems are geared to use Sky's system.

    Regionalisation: How will this be done? Will there be a central registry or a card that you plug in saying what regions you can get? What about Ireland? Have the BBC met with RTE with regard to Northern Ireland. A freesat service may well serve Rep of Ireland well - offering DSAT without the large cost that Sky charge and sharing the costs.

    Maybe they should start talking to BT? opps, they wouldn't be allowed to do that would that.

    Can't see anything happening until 2008...


    Nobbynolan,
    I think the idea of ITV potentially going FTA is also great, but your post throws cold water on this. However couldnt ITV just decide to do this unilatterally, just like the BBC? Why would the whole thing have to wait till 2008?
    My own thoughts(hopes) on this are that ITV will go FTA at the same time as the launch of ITV 4. They are also about to roll out a new corporate identity and I believe this will also happen at the same time, giving us all a new, fresher, more open brand for the Christmas..........
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,865
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    BowWow wrote:
    Nobbynolan,
    I think the idea of ITV potentially going FTA is also great, but your post throws cold water on this. However couldnt ITV just decide to do this unilatterally, just like the BBC? Why would the whole thing have to wait till 2008?
    My own thoughts(hopes) on this are that ITV will go FTA at the same time as the launch of ITV 4. They are also about to roll out a new corporate identity and I believe this will also happen at the same time, giving us all a new, fresher, more open brand for the Christmas..........
    My hopes are the same as yours.

    As far as the cold water goes, it's because of the issues that a rival sat system brings. The problems I suggested above were mainly due to cost: The launch of a freesat system may cost ITV more in the short-term than £18M a year. If they require encryption for rights purposes, they will need new transponders to duplicate channels. I'm not sure how much transponders cost to lease but I imagine, given the famine on 28E that it might cause prices to rise.

    Okay, they don't have to go with 28E but if they don't then existing systems will have to be changed - no "just plug your box into your existing dish". Freesat will not have the infrastructure in place to be able to deliver the kind of install familar with Sky. Of course, independent installers can provide this but at what cost: would it exceed £150?

    The interactive element that the BBC offers will probably be unavailable on freesat as will any online voting stuff/betting that ITV currently offer. ITV may also have to fit some of the bill for the promotional material that Freesat may need to deliver. To deliver it they may need standardised boxes - how long would it take to develop these?

    Are Channel 4 locked until 2008 - therefore they will need new capacity to duplicate encryption/provide free-to-air. Who would pay this cost? Freesat couldn't or perhaps shouldn't launch without them.

    Sat systems won't work like DTT - they can't just provide your local channels without some regionalisation system. Specialised boxes/encryption would be needed - time to develop? Or they can be user selected but it wouldn't be that easy to use for novices, unlike Sky where it just happens.

    In short, there is a time factor for the Freesat system - don't think it will happen until 2008 because the system will want to emulate functions of the Sky box or provide a significant financial benefit to them. The only way i can see ITV being interested is over the longer-term is if there is a specialised box and a capacity for Pay TV - that's what ITV are interested in.... they will want to do it right and wont just throw out any-old box.

    As a result, I cant see an ITV backed system by christmas.
  • ffocusedffocused Posts: 90
    Forum Member
    Has anyone considered that freesat could be broadcast from a different satellite? no contractual issues with Sky then? :D
  • SystemSystem Posts: 2,096,970
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ffocused wrote:
    Has anyone considered that freesat could be broadcast from a different satellite? no contractual issues with Sky then? :D
    Okay, they don't have to go with 28E but if they don't then existing systems will have to be changed - no "just plug your box into your existing dish". Freesat will not have the infrastructure in place to be able to deliver the kind of install familar with Sky. Of course, independent installers can provide this but at what cost: would it exceed £150?
  • SteveMcKSteveMcK Posts: 5,457
    Forum Member
    ffocused wrote:
    Has anyone considered that freesat could be broadcast from a different satellite? no contractual issues with Sky then? :D
    Would make no difference to Sky, the satellites are owned by SES and Sky just rent space like the BBC do.

    The problem would be that people would need new dishes, or re-aligned dishes. If there was government approval to permit more than one dish without planning permisison that might fly, but the costs start to mount. Sky can afford to offer 'free' installs, since they give the installers enough business, but if you had to rely on local installers doing one-offs charged at normal rates you could be looking at 50-100 quid per install, plus the equipment cost. Stops being so attractive then.

    At least for the moment, I would think that any competing service, free or not, would have to operate from 28E. With many people having spare outputs from Quad LNBs there's even a part of the infrastructure already in place.
  • SystemSystem Posts: 2,096,970
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    cifpower wrote:
    Okay, they don't have to go with 28E but if they don't then existing systems will have to be changed - no "just plug your box into your existing dish". Freesat will not have the infrastructure in place to be able to deliver the kind of install familar with Sky. Of course, independent installers can provide this but at what cost: would it exceed £150?
    At a cost to the installer?

    Dish, LNB, Bolts and Brackets = £6.50

    or Quad LNB = £10 to £15

    Lidl/Comag type STB = £25

    CT100 Cable & Clips = £5.00 an install?

    Assuming it was all FTA, and used 28e. Not sure what price an installer would put on that. Sky guys have 30 minutes for each install, so £36.50 for a new install is the cost to an installer, plus margin, plus labour.

    They could go for £99 or £125 and make a reasonable profit.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,550
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    nobbynolan wrote:
    If they require encryption for rights purposes, they will need new transponders to duplicate channels.

    Putting aside the fact that they probably don't require encryption, even if they did there would be no problem.

    The DVB spec allows for simulcrypting- using two (or more) independent encryption mechanisms on the same stream. This means no extra space is required, but they would obviously have to pay the licence for the secondary encryption scheme.
    nobbynolan wrote:
    Okay, they don't have to go with 28E but if they don't then existing systems will have to be changed - no "just plug your box into your existing dish". Freesat will not have the infrastructure in place to be able to deliver the kind of install familar with Sky. Of course, independent installers can provide this but at what cost: would it exceed £150?

    See above, there is no need to move from 28.2e.
    nobbynolan wrote:
    The interactive element that the BBC offers will probably be unavailable on freesat as will any online voting stuff/betting that ITV currently offer. ITV may also have to fit some of the bill for the promotional material that Freesat may need to deliver. To deliver it they may need standardised boxes - how long would it take to develop these?

    There is the MHP standard for interactive tv already, and it's used widely in europe. Many of the european broadcasters are transitioning from closed, proprietry interactive standards to the open MHP standard. Boxes are available now. The BBC (as far as I can tell) have been working on MHP in some capacity already. And ITV's interactive 'stuff' on satellite is hardly anything to write home about at the moment
    nobbynolan wrote:
    Are Channel 4 locked until 2008 - therefore they will need new capacity to duplicate encryption/provide free-to-air. Who would pay this cost? Freesat couldn't or perhaps shouldn't launch without them.

    They are paying for encryption; they don't have to use it. (E4 is a different problem- it was previously part of the sky family pack)
    nobbynolan wrote:
    Sat systems won't work like DTT - they can't just provide your local channels without some regionalisation system. Specialised boxes/encryption would be needed - time to develop? Or they can be user selected but it wouldn't be that easy to use for novices, unlike Sky where it just happens.

    Yes, it wouldn't be that easy for novices. Encryption shouldn't be needed.
Sign In or Register to comment.