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NDS trying to destroy Dream Multimedia

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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NDS, manufacturer of encryption systems for DVB services are thwarting Dream Multimedia, manufacturer of Linux set-top-boxes

End of last year NDS have requested Dream Multimedia to close up their open-source operating software and remove the Ethernet network connection from all their products.

Now NDS in their role as president of ETSI (European Telecommunications Standards Institute)have taken an even more drastic step. ETSI are refusing to grant a CSA (Common Scrambling Algorythm) license to Dream Multimedia. NDS have an unhealthy large say in ETSI and consequently have the power to stop a license being granted without any valid reason whatsoever.

Unfortunately, a manufacturer needs an ETSI license to be allowed to inplement CSA encryption. This implementation is a requirement for a set-top-box to comply with and work according to the DVB standard. Without ETSI license a manufacturer cannot legally use and implement CSA.

IBM, manufacturer of the CPU(central processing unit) in the set-top-boxes DM7000, DM5620, DM500 and DM7020 have been put under great pressure by NDS not to sell CPUs to Dream Multimedia anymore. This has been done by using the argument of Dream Multimedia not having a valid license.
The same pressure has been put on the (new) manufacturer of CPUs' that Dream Multimedia intends to use in their new models DM7025 and DM8000.

Ofcourse this is an outrageous development and a heavy blow to the open source community. NDS apparently have the power to make an organisation like ETSI refuse a license to any manufacturer without any valid reason.

ETSI, which is a non-profit organisation which' major goal is standardisation should not refuse a license to Dream Multimedia, since the company complies with all conditions required to obtain a license.

source: Management of Dream Multimedia

It's quite appaling to witness the power of Rupert's companies. Now they've started to try and destroy independent set-top-box manufacturers?
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 19,409
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    So the message is - if you want one buy it quick :D
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 124
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    Sounds like BS to me because Dream Multimedia also sell dreamboxes in Australia, where ETSI have no say in what goes on.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    Well, Dream Multimedia produce the most versatile receivers that are available. I really think it's gruesome that a NDS has the power to destroy a company as innovative as Dream Multimedia. Where does it end? I'm sure that NDS would be very pleased if they could make sure that only boxes are produced that they approve of. We all know what kind of receivers that would be...
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    _Stu_ wrote:
    Sounds like BS to me because Dream Multimedia also sell dreamboxes in Australia, where ETSI have no say in what goes on.


    Try telling that to IBM, who have stopped delivering the PPC CPU which powers the Dream receivers.

    Anyway, DVB is a european(-developed) standard. So they seem to have some say in this worldwide.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 124
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    From www.etsi.org:

    ETSI has an important role in supporting the European Commission and the Secretariat of the European Free Trade Association concerning regulatory and legislative matters related to telecommunications. However, it should be noted that ETSI is independent of both organizations; also, it is not a regulator body.
    As they say themselves they are not a regulatory body, so there's no such thing as an 'etsi license' as far as I can see.

    Unfortunately, I don't have any contacts at IBM to query your assertion about them not supplying processors to Dream either...

    Until I see independent evidence that what you say is true, then I will remain sceptical.
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    housepartyhouseparty Posts: 245
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    hi

    nds is meant to be such a great scambling system why dont they just change something to stop the software from working?, nds meant to be so safe.

    the other thing i would like to say is i dont think for one minite the company behind the dreambox are making the files, these are done by some clever people on the net, so trying to close down dream media is crazy.

    ive not talked about hacking here in any way, im talking about viewing sky in a dreambox with an offical sky card.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 124
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    I have discovered that they are the custodian of the CSA license on behalf of Irdeto, Canal+ and News Datacom Ltd (NDS) so there may be some truth in this, although I remain sceptical for now as there are still inconsistencies between your original statement and the information on the etsi website, such as the claim that NDS are the president of ETSI, which they are not...
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    _Stu_ wrote:
    I have discovered that they are the custodian of the CSA license on behalf of Irdeto, Canal+ and News Datacom Ltd (NDS) so there may be some truth in this, although I remain sceptical for now as there are still inconsistencies between your original statement and the information on the etsi website, such as the claim that NDS are the president of ETSI, which they are not...

    Well, I have just translated the original statement from Dutch. I don't know about the exact status of NDS in ETSI. However, they seem to have a large say in what ETSI approves and what not. And I know for sure that the source of this statement is reliable, at least for as far as the inside information from Dream Multimedia is concerned.

    These kind of actions would be characteristic for NDS, don't you think?
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    There is a PDF-document to be found on the web in which NDS are "advising" IBM how to notify Dream Multimedia, and probably other set-top-box manufacturers which NDS don't like, about this socalled illegal use of intellectual property. Which is only illegal because NDS are abusing their position in ETSI to prevent a license for the use of CSA being granted to manufacturers who abide to all ETSI's rules and regulations.

    The position of NDS in this case is at least a bit smelly, but I think it's even a lot worse... They're now actively trying to destroy independent set-top-box manufacturers.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,008
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    We only have one side of the argument here so it is hard to know what is going on. But the problem with open source is that it is "open", as the DVD forum found out to their cost if you don't police people who implement your encryption then it only requires one persion to leave the code available to hackers for a cart and horses to be driven through the security.

    I don't know what the situation is here but my guess is that ETSI is trying to protect the CSA from being broken in a wholesale manner and to allow those who use it (Irdeto, Canal+ and NDS etc) to procide secure end to end encryption for the broadcasters who licence their systems.

    Encryption and Digital Rights Management are being coming more complex and I can understand why ETSI might be trying to maintain the security of its licences.

    I wonder if ETSI or someone else will actually bother to respond to this statement.
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    CitySlickerCitySlicker Posts: 10,414
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    It's important to remember as well that Dream aren't the only people out there making open source receivers, so this is far from the be all and end all.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,490
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    Jalu wrote:
    source: Management of Dream Multimedia

    It's quite appaling to witness the power of Rupert's companies. Now they've started to try and destroy independent set-top-box manufacturers?

    I thought murdoch sold nds a couple of years ago.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    Well, CSA has not been broken in a wholesale manner, even though there have been open source DVB receivers for about three or four years now. And there are also many non-open-source receivers for which there's software available which opens all kinds of CA systems illegaly.

    And again, if these manufacturers comply to ETSI regulations, there is no legal ground for not granting this license.
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    CitySlickerCitySlicker Posts: 10,414
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    I'm always weary of what Dream says on anything as well, particularly after a nasty time bomb in their software a couple of years back which I'm sure many will remember knocking out their hardware and forcing them to send it back to the manufacturer.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    I'm always weary of what Dream says on anything as well, particularly after a nasty time bomb in their software a couple of years back which I'm sure many will remember knocking out their hardware and forcing them to send it back to the manufacturer.

    I don't think this timebomb came in Dream Multimedia's original firmware but in some inofficial firmware version made by someone who thought he was funny.

    It should be remembered that a Dreambox is a very capable receiver using just Dream Multimedia's official firmware versions.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    Anyhow, wouldn't a complete crack of CSA be a God's gift to these providers? They'd have the perfect valid reason to dump MPEG2 alltogether and start all over again with new standards, which could be made more secure.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,550
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    ALanJ wrote:
    But the problem with open source is that it is "open", as the DVD forum found out to their cost if you don't police people who implement your encryption then it only requires one persion to leave the code available to hackers for a cart and horses to be driven through the security.

    Only the secrecy of the key provides security. Secrecy of the algorithm shouldn't be relied upon for security. According to wikipedia, the algorithm is known publicly anyway-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Scrambling_Algorithm

    Open source does not mean insecure. Have a look at Kerberos for example (where the only real weakness is when you use poor quality keys).
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    SystemSystem Posts: 2,096,970
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    is it the end for dreamboxes then?
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 110
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    NDS is sometimes like a mafia. Do we remember lawsuit between NDS and Canal+?

    Why norwegian ca-manufacturer Conax does not complain same way like NDS? Conax is officially licensed to used for example with Triple Dragon which is also Linux-receiver similar like Dreambox.

    And I say that Conax is more secure than NDS.

    Using open source Linux as an operating system of set top box is not a crime. What most ridiculous, independed manufacturer should disable ethernet network connection from their products?
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    rupertoid wrote:
    NDS is sometimes like a mafia. Do we remember lawsuit between NDS and Canal+?

    Why norwegian ca-manufacturer Conax does not complain same way like NDS? Conax is officially licensed to used for example with Triple Dragon which is also Linux-receiver similar like Dreambox.

    And I say that Conax is more secure than NDS.

    Using open source Linux as an operating system of set top box is not a crime. What most ridiculous, independed manufacturer should disable ethernet network connection from their products?

    Well, the argument may be that because of the Ethernet conenction, cardsharing is possible.

    But that's not a valid argument, since almost any satellite receiver can be used for cardsharing these days, even older receivers with just serial ports like the good old Humax IRCI-5400...
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    HarshadHarshad Posts: 5,996
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    that rupee is talking the piss now he wants to destroy the satellite community :cry:
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    SystemSystem Posts: 2,096,970
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    Of course, all new Sky boxes will have RJ45 ports.

    It must be the way that they do cardsharing that is a problem, not the fact it has a port. I guess even if they removed the ability to card share, being open source it would be put right back in by other developers.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 110
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    c.barber wrote:
    is it the end for dreamboxes then?

    Can be end of Dream Multimedia but not end of open source set top boxes. They can not stop manufacturing boxes for example in China... :D

    Card-sharing is not a problem for british SKY. They can upgrade system that sharing can not be succesful through Internet.

    So I just wonder why NDS / SKY is doing actions like this? Really necessary or maybe they just hate open source community? :mad:
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    Anyhow, I think it's partially NDS' own fault that alternative receivers appear on the market that use reverse engineered software to be able to receive NDS Videoguard encrypted transmission on non-Digibox receivers.

    They could have prevented that quite easily by creating an official NDS Videoguard CI CAM module. But they were too arrogant to do so and wanted to control what receiver their customers used. Now alternative receivers appeared on the market that can also read official NDS smartcards and this is NDS' reaction.

    NDS is a dangerous company.
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    HarshadHarshad Posts: 5,996
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    Exactly they want everyone to use their poorly equipped dodgyboxes.
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