Intelligent PVR Convergence: HDD+DVDR+EPG+(Freeview x 2), yes?

daliniandalinian Posts: 133
Forum Member
I have sent the following to the list of PVR manufacturers listed at the end of the message. While awaiting their replies, which I'll summarise in follow-up posts, I'd be interested to hear the views of contributors to this forum.


Dear Citizen,

I'm intending to buy my first Personal Video Recorder to use in the UK and, having reviewed appropriate web forums and sites, your company seems to be one which may be able to meet my desires. From the range of current technologies available, myself (and many others it seems[a]) would like an integrated machine incorporating:

A. MANDATORY
1) A Hard Disk Drive: at least 160Mb in capacity -- primarily for time-shifting temporary recordings of TV/radio broadcasts, and also for pausing and chasing live TV/radio
2) A DVD Recorder: as multi-format as seems optimal -- primarily for creating permanent archives of recordings, and also to enable simultaneous recordings of broadcast TV/radio from two different channels
3) An intelligent Electronic Programme Guide: from which recordings can be specified and automatically titled -- incorporating the best 'set-and-forget' features of TiVo et al, such as named favourites, suggestions, wishlists, series link and season pass [c]
4) TWO Digital Tuners: DVB-T to receive all Freeview TV/radio channels

B. OPTIONAL BUT PREFFERED
5) A Top-Up TV card slot: to expand digital terrestrial TV reception to the maximum number of channels available, on both digital tuners [d]
6) An external-video-in (SCART?) socket: to enable the connection of, eg: a Video Cassette Recorder, for archiving previously recorded content from video tape to DVD Video disk

Since we know that the analogue TV signal will be gone by the end of 2012, an analogue TV tuner in a current PVR product seems obviously anachronistic. Many people are now familiar with and enthusiasts for watching one channel while recording from another; and two digital tuners (with picture-in-picture[e]) would best allow this functionality to successfully (and simply) negotiate the analogue TV switch-off. The additional advantages for the 63% (and climbing) of UK households with at least one digital tuner already installed would include watching one channel while recording from TWO others: one to the HDD and another to the DVDR.

Please let me know if any of your current or immanent UK products (due for retail release before 31 Dec 05) meet these criteria; and if any of your products come close, please feel free to draw them to my attention.

Given that technology maturity scales with implementing global standards, the least mature component is the EPG. Now that the European Telecommunications Standards Institute http://www.etsi.org has published the TV-Anytime Phase 2 Specifications, please let me know roughly when you anticipate your company will retail release a PVR using an EPG based on TV-Anytime rich metadata [c].

Thanks in advance for your time and attention. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Warm regards,

Tim Jones
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"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations
which we can perform without thinking of them."
Alfred North Whitehead
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Notes
[a] HDD+DVDR+EPG+(Freeview x 2)
HDD DVD DVR PVR Freeviewx2 http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?board=recorders;action=display;num=1126163866 (08 Sep 05)
The great PVR debate http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=275526 (31 Aug 05)
Twin Tuners (Freeview) PVR - HD and DVD recorder http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=273785 (28 Aug 05)
Pvr/dvd/freeview - All In One? http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238756 (27 Aug 05)
Fancy a TopView ... wish it had a DVD player as well http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232405 (04 Aug 05)
Why is it so difficult to buy a good FreeView PVR in the UK? http://www.readybb.com/pvruk/viewtopic.php?t=131 (09 Jun 05)
Freeview + DVD-RAM + PVR? http://www.readybb.com/pvruk/viewtopic.php?t=80 (13 Dec 04)
I can't be the only one who wants this!!!?? http://www.readybb.com/pvruk/viewtopic.php?t=69 (05 Nov 04)
PVR DVD all-in-one unit http://www.readybb.com/pvruk/viewtopic.php?t=7 (24 Mar 04)

Archiving to DVD
Freeview DVD recorder http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=243849 (02 Jul 05)
Archiving... http://www.readybb.com/pvruk/viewtopic.php?t=113 (27 Apr 05)

[c] EPG sophistication
Freeview PVR with series links? http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=280028 (13 Sep 05)
Is there a freeview pvr that does season passes like a TiVO? http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237055 (21 Aug 05)
Poll: If TiVo return to the UK would you buy one and be happy to pay for an EPG? http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=221870 (24 May 05) and most especially: 'In order for a PVR to be genuinely useful it needs to have a sophisticated series-recording option' http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showpost.php?p=4810624&postcount=68
Season-pass / Series-link http://www.readybb.com/pvruk/viewtopic.php?t=107 (25 Mar 05)
TiVo: http://www.tivo.com/1.0.asp
TV-Anytime: http://www.tv-anytime.org "Manufacturers of Personal Video Recorder (PVR) products today must rely on proprietary solutions and partnerships with specific service providers, due to the absence of industry standards. This leads to vertical market implementations and restricts viewers to a single service provider. Standardization, on the other hand, will lead to economy of scale, interoperability and market growth. The advantages of such standardization for consumers and the industry are expected to be substantial." "The TV-Anytime specifications now offer all sectors of the industry the tools that will allow consumers to search for, find, select and enjoy the widest possible range of content, from the broadcast, VOD, mobile and IPTV world. These specifications will help in creating a flow of rich metadata from content providers and advertisers, to broadcasters and service providers, and then ultimately to consumers, making the television viewing experience both simpler and richer."

[d] TopUp TV
PVR, with a slot for Top Up TV? http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=280730 (15 Sep 05)
Freeview PVR + tutv http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=280378 (14 Sep 05)
Boxes with recording & Top-Up TV http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?board=recorders;action=display;num=1123325798 (03 Aug 04)
The need for CAMs and Pay TV http://www.readybb.com/pvruk/viewtopic.php?t=16 (28 Mar 04)
TopUp TV http://www.readybb.com/pvruk/viewtopic.php?t=13 (24 Mar 04)

[e] PIP popularity
Picture inside picture http://www.readybb.com/pvruk/viewtopic.php?t=128 (06 Jun 05)

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DISTRIBUTION

Manufacturers
Fusion, Humax, Inverto, JVC, PACE, Panasonic, Pioneer, Reelbox, Sagem, Samsung, Sony, Thomson, TiVo, Topfield

Forums
AV Forums > Audio Visual Sources > PVRs & VCRs
Digital Spy > Media Zone Forums > Digital Video Recorders
pvruk Forum > Freeview DVRs
Radio and Telly Forum > Equipment > Digital recorders
...to where I shall also post summaries of manufacturer replies

Comments

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,528
    Forum Member
    A2) I presume you mean two recordings onto the HDD and then later transfer to DVD discs? The DVD recorder part of this thing is not going to be able to record two things to a disc at the same time (the write head would be doing some interesting gymnastics to achieve THAT!)

    BTW If any manufacturer had anything like this for Dec 05 we'd have heard about it by now. Manufacturers have to have stock into retailers wharehouses Sept/Oct for Christmas sales so I fear you've missed the boat until next Christmas.

    Cliff
  • daliniandalinian Posts: 133
    Forum Member
    After two days, here's a summary of responses so far, formatted as follows. I'll edit revisions into this message.
    MANUFACTURER====================================================
    Manufacturer suggestion(s). HDD+dvdr+EPG+(FREEVIEW x 2) - spec comparison PRESENT absent
    Supplemental questions from me to manufacturer (or my comments/questions to forum participants).
    Manufacturer's response to supplemental questions.

    FUSION====================================================
    Suggested their FVRT 200 recorder. HDD+dvdr+EPG+(FREEVIEW x 2)
    Does Fusion have any plans to retail release a similar recorder with an internal DVDR in the next six months?
    Also, could you please let me know roughly when you anticipate Fusion will retail release a PVR using an EPG based on TV-Anytime rich metadata?

    Awaiting reply

    HUMAX====================================================
    No response so far.

    INVERTO====================================================
    No response so far.

    JVC====================================================
    No response so far.

    PACE====================================================
    No response so far.

    PANASONIC====================================================
    No response so far.

    PIONEER====================================================
    Suggested their DVR-530 and DVR-630 recorders. HDD+DVDR+EPG+(freeview x 2)
    Does Pioneer have any plans to retail release similar recorders with internal Freeview tuners in the next six months?
    Also, could you please let me know roughly when you anticipate Pioneer will retail release a PVR using an EPG based on TV-Anytime rich metadata?
    "We can not comment on products that are or are not in development, we do not have any plans to replace the current line up of DVD recorders until March/April next year and the specifications of the new recorders will be announced then.
    Regards."
    Customer Relations, PIONEER GB LIMITED

    REELBOX====================================================
    No response so far.

    SAGEM====================================================
    No response so far.

    SAMSUNG====================================================
    "With reference to your email regarding our VCR's (sic), you can view the full range of of VCR's we have available at www.samsung.com/uk."
    Samsung Electronics UK, Customer Communication Center
    Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear -- beneath contempt.

    SONY====================================================
    No response so far.

    THOMSON====================================================
    Sent a draft spec sheet for their DTH 8550 E recorder. HDD+DVDR+EPG+(freeview x 2)
    1) Freeview x 2 (A) -- the 'Tuner' section makes no mention of the DVB-T DTTV standard; please could you confirm that the DTH 8550 E only has one internal analogue TV tuner?
    2) Freeview x 2 (B) -- does Thomson have any plans to retail release a similar recorder with two internal DVB-T tuners in the next six months?
    3) EPG -- for how many days ahead does the Naviclick program guide provide information; and from where does it collect its program data?
    4) TV-Anytime -- could you please let me know roughly when you anticipate Fusion will retail release a PVR using an EPG based on TV-Anytime rich metadata?

    Awaiting reply.

    TIVO====================================================
    Email bounced.
    Does anyone have a UK or US email or enq.web.form address for TiVo?

    TOPFIELD====================================================
    No response so far.
  • mobilymobily Posts: 261
    Forum Member
    I presume you mean a 160gb hard drive rather than a 160mb hard drive :p
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,528
    Forum Member
    Sorry to be a pedant (can't help myself!) but I hope he means 160GB not 160gb. The SI multiplier Giga is usually denoted with capital G (not sure what 'g' would stand for ?) and for definite (in this context) B=bytes, b=bits. So even if the g is still Giga then 160gb is 20GB which isn't what we want either ;)

    Actually thinking about it, because such a machine CLEARLY isn't going to happen in 2005, I'd have thought that for 2006-7 one should be hoping for perhaps a minimum of 250GB which should be achievable under Moore's Law.

    Cliff
  • daliniandalinian Posts: 133
    Forum Member
    To simplify the maintenance of PVR manufacturer responses, I'm posting summaries to the AV Forums 'PVRs & VCRs' forum at:
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245328

    (My original intention to post summaries to this Digital Spy DVR forum was frustrated by lack of message editing facilities here.)
  • daliniandalinian Posts: 133
    Forum Member
    CJL wrote:
    I presume you mean two recordings onto the HDD and then later transfer to DVD discs? The DVD recorder part of this thing is not going to be able to record two things to a disc at the same time.
    I was thinking of Freeview tuner 1's channel recording to the HDD, while Freeview tuner 2's channel is recording to the DVDR, at the same time. And if the HDD can make two simultaneous recordings, so much the better.
    mobily wrote:
    I presume you mean a 160gb hard drive rather than a 160mb hard drive. :p
    <blush> Oops! Well spotted, mobily -- sorry, just a typo, but of course I mean 'at least 160GB'; and thanks to CJL/Cliff for pointing out that's cap G for Giga and cap B for Bytes.
    Cyril wrote:
    Don't forget that there is a lot of great radio available in this country, and a PVR should also have series links/season passes/wishlists for these programmes, which will also require sophisticated metadata in the EPG.
    Excellent point - there's certainly stuff on BBC R4 and BBC7 for which I'd like to 'set-and-forget' programmed recordings. Do any of the current EPG equipped PVRs allow one to do this?
    I think i'd like one with a slightly larger capacity...
    CJL wrote:
    Actually thinking about it, because such a machine CLEARLY isn't going to happen in 2005, I'd have thought that for 2006-7 one should be hoping for perhaps a minimum of 250GB which should be achievable under Moore's Law.
    I was trying to confine my 'now?' spec to components that several PVR manufacturers have already produced in retail models. I agree that since it's increasingly clear that this can only be a 'future?' spec, there's no reason why we shouldn't demand/expect a higher HDD capacity.
    Cyril wrote:
    Wired and wireless transmission and control over networks and the internet should also be mandatory. An active USB port (not the crippled Sky+ stuff) and/or ethernet connection is super-cheap nowadays so there should be no excuse for including them.
    Good points - and I hope they will emerge in more potential PVR purchaser's 'future?' specs and in future PVRs.
    CJL wrote:
    BTW If any manufacturer had anything like this for Dec 05 we'd have heard about it by now. Manufacturers have to have stock into retailers wharehouses Sept/Oct for Christmas sales so I fear you've missed the boat until next Christmas.
    If you read all the forums you list then surely you know no such product exists, and there is none on the horizon.
    My reason for approaching the PVR manufacturers in this way was twofold:
    1) to maybe get to hear about an upcoming PVR that comes close enough to be worth buying now, rather than having to wait for the manufacturers to catch up with logical customer demand (still waiting); and
    2) to remind the manufacturers (assuming they follow these forums) that folks have been asking for this kind of PVR for a year and a half.

    At the risk of opening the floodgates of pessimism, cynicism and nihilism, I'm tempted to ask ... why? If multiple posters have been asking for this kind of PVR for the last 18 months, why have the manufacturers so far only produced sub-spec machines?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,528
    Forum Member
    dalinian wrote:
    I'm tempted to ask ... why? If multiple posters have been asking for this kind of PVR for the last 18 months, why have the manufacturers so far only produced sub-spec machines?
    DRM issues?

    EU import tariffs on recorders versus PVRs?

    The head buyer of DSG doesn't see a large market for such a device?

    It takes a couple of years to design/manufaturer such a thing? (HDs only started to come in high GBs at a low enough cost for CE fairly recently)

    MPEG and DVD+/- royalties?

    Wait for silicon designs that include the important digital DVB->DVD step?

    This would be even more complex that a straight PVR and manfacturers seem to have a difficult enough time making one of those error free?

    I'm sure there are many other reasons.

    Cliff
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36
    Forum Member
    dalinian wrote:
    If multiple posters have been asking for this kind of PVR for the last 18 months, why have the manufacturers so far only produced sub-spec machines?

    I think that none of the PVR's released so far have been without problems of some sort or another. The manufacturers are only just getting machines running smoothly now, so the sort of thing people have been asking for is only just becoming practical. Hopefully over the next year the dreams will become reality.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,528
    Forum Member
    There's also two distinct development camps. The twin DVB-T and HDD boys and the single analogue and DVDR boys.

    It seems "never the twain shall meet".

    To do this involves the DVB/PVR camp learning about making DVDRs or the DVDR camp learning DVB

    Cliff
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36
    Forum Member
    I don't understand the problem, it seems the people deciding what products to make are too blinkered to see the potential. Or maybe they are making too much money selling products which will be outdated in a year's time, and see the money rolling in!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 31
    Forum Member
    Patience wrote:
    I don't understand the problem, it seems the people deciding what products to make are too blinkered to see the potential. Or maybe they are making too much money selling products which will be outdated in a year's time, and see the money rolling in!

    I agree. I think it's all down to marketing people having too much say.

    There is no way someone like Sony can't make what we want, as long as the right departments are talking to one other. They make any AV kit you can think of, plus PCs, so all the expertise is there.

    ...OTOH I suspect it might be internal politics that's getting in the way. How else would you explain the failure of Sony to market MinDisc as a computer floppy disc replacement in the early 90s?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,528
    Forum Member
    I know of at least one compay that decided against making such a machine because it just wasn't economically feasible to do it.

    One thing people often don't understand is exactly how low the margins on DVD recorders are. There are, for example, some Taiwanese brands who, out of the factory, only make a profit of ONE dollar per box. They shift huge bulk (often through supermarkets in UK at £99!) and are happy with this but it's not a great business model for every company! One thing they often don't do, to avoid some costs, is for example: pay the MPEG and DVD disc format royalties and instead just work on the basis of "OK, so sue us". Again, not every company can operate a business on this kind of basis.

    Cliff
  • daliniandalinian Posts: 133
    Forum Member
    Thanks for the well-informed discussion, folks.

    Well, I grew tired of waiting, decided to bite the bullet and choose a PVR box: I bought a Panasonic DMREH60D. While it's early days, here's my assessment of how close this box gets to my HDD+DVDR+EPG+(Freeview x 2) criteria.

    A. MANDATORY
    1) A Hard Disk Drive: at least 160GB in capacity -- primarily for time-shifting temporary recordings of TV/radio broadcasts, and also for pausing and chasing live TV/radio
    DMREH60D: 200GB, and does a fine job of time-shifting temporary recordings of TV/radio broadcasts; a "Time Slip" function helps in chasing live TV/radio (and in skipping adcrap in playing back ad-break contaminated recordings).
    2) A DVD Recorder: as multi-format as seems optimal -- primarily for creating permanent archives of recordings, and also to enable simultaneous recordings of broadcast TV/radio from two different channels.
    DMREH60D: recording and playback discs: DVD-RAM, DVD-RW, DVD-R, DVD+R; playback only discs: DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, DVD+RW, various CD formats; unfortunately however, despite having two drives capable of simultaneous recordings, you can only ever record one thing at a time -- what a waste. :mad:
    3) An intelligent Electronic Programme Guide: from which recordings can be specified and automatically titled -- incorporating the best 'set-and-forget' features of TiVo et al, such as named favourites, suggestions, wishlists, series link and season pass.
    DMREH60D: the Freeview-fed 8-day EPG in the UK does allow recordings to be specified and automatically titled; but you can't call it up while a recording is happening, and it has no TiVoesque 'set-and-forget' intelligent features at all.
    4) TWO Digital Tuners: DVB-T to receive all Freeview TV/radio channels.
    DMREH60D: one digital tuner receives all Freeview TV/radio channels; and the additional analogue tuner seems like a redundant anachronism.

    B. OPTIONAL BUT PREFFERED
    5) A Top-Up TV card slot: to expand digital terrestrial TV reception to the maximum number of channels available, on both digital tuners.
    DMREH60D: nope; workaround: plug a Freeview STB with a Top-Up TV card slot into one of the inputs listed below -- but you'll need to manually set congruent timer programs on both the STB and the DMREH60D to record a TUTV programme.

    6) An external-video-in (SCART?) socket: to enable the connection of, eg: a Video Cassette Recorder, for archiving previously recorded content from video tape to DVD Video disk.
    DMREH60D: inputs: AV2 Scart (rear), AV3 S Video/Video + L/R (front), AV4 S Video/Video + L/R (rear); so connecting three different external video sources is possible.

    So, I've connected up my existing Freeview+TUTV STB and miniDV+SVHS VCR to the DMREH60D. While this just about works around the latter's lack of second digital tuner and TUTV support, and its inability to record from two sources simultaneously, there's no workaround for the lack of an intelligent 'set-and-forget' EPG short of buying an additional TiVo or Sky+ box <sigh>. :rolleyes:

    So, while its good at what it does, comes with a comprehensive and well designed manual, and arguably comes closer to my suggested HDD+DVDR+EPG+(Freeview x 2) criteria than most of its rivals, the DMREH60D is sadly still only a stepping stone on the path to an intelligently designed convergent PVR. It's now over 18 months since this kind of suggestion was first floated on the PVRUK Forum -- I wonder how much longer we'll have to wait before the CE manufacturers buck their ideas up?

    As for their response to an informed enquiry -- they ranged from the abysmal (look at the VCR's on our web site -- Samsung), through the merely ignorant (no response from Humax, Inverto, JVC, Pace, Reelbox, Sagem, TiVo, Topfield), via the predictable (suggesting a sub-spec current machine, ignoring subsequent questions -- Fusion, Panasonic, Sony) to the helpful (current sub-spec machine suggestion and helpful answers to subsequent questions -- Pioneer, Thompson). For the most part (paraphrasing Rick Blaine), I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of one little CE consumer don't amount to a hill of beans in their crazy world.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1
    Forum Member
    Re purchasing the Panasonic you may have jumped early.Sony have launched the RDR-HXD710 looks very good I am tempted. Retail £499 cheapest on the web £391
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