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Are we ready for HDTV?
Please forgive my obsession with this but the lack of response to this thread (with a few notable exceptions) and the lack of similar comment on these forums suggests that the majority of people have not noticed the shocking drop in picture quality on Sky's flagship movies channels.
I would have thought it would be immediately obvious to anyone with a reasonable sized plasma or LCD, i.e. the type of equipment likely to be required for HDTV, so does that mean people won't appreciate the vast increase in quality we'll see with HDTV?
I, for one, am almost counting the days until HDTV is available (and I'm already saving for a new plasma) so I certainly wouldn't want anything to divert Sky from their commitment in this area.
What do others think?
TC
I would have thought it would be immediately obvious to anyone with a reasonable sized plasma or LCD, i.e. the type of equipment likely to be required for HDTV, so does that mean people won't appreciate the vast increase in quality we'll see with HDTV?
I, for one, am almost counting the days until HDTV is available (and I'm already saving for a new plasma) so I certainly wouldn't want anything to divert Sky from their commitment in this area.
What do others think?
TC
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i was very disapointed with our current display quality options.
THE DAY sky release a HD box, is THE DAY that i buy myself the box plus a plasma screen.
The difference truely is amazing.
On the other hand, most people put up with crappy VHS pictures without complaint and never upgraded to S-VHS even when the prices dropped. That doesn't mean they didn't notice or appreciate the improved picture quality of DVD players when they came along, it just means that they were happy enough with what they had until something better came along at an affordable price.
Even then it required a combination of word of mouth, seeing them in other people's houses, increasing availability of good quality material and falling prices to snowball the DVD market into what it is today.
For most people to make the substantial investment in a new HDTV capable TV, new HDTV capable receiver, new HDTV capable recorder and probably and increased subscription for HDTV services the prices will still need to drop a lot more and the material on offer will have to make it worth their while.
As the owner of a 50" Plasma and a reasonable sized collection of DVDs, I'd have to say that films recorded onto Sky+ from Sky Movies 1, 2 and 3 have been my main source of movie material, at least since widescreen and Dolby Digital 5.1 were made available on these channels via Sky+.
As I said in the other thread, I may actually have to consider starting to buy DVDs again!
Perhaps there is a move to DD 5.1 coming on Box Office, which I something I never bother with at the moment. If this were the case and bit-rates were increased to levels previously enjoyed on SM 1,2 and 3, I'd consider buying Box Office films.
TC
I feel sorry for all these people that went out and bought large plasma and LCD TVs only to find 95% of them have a lower resolution than standard TV!!
Look how many only have 480 lines, when standard PAL TV / DVD is 576, so these TVs down-scale.
When you buy a HDTV receiver, you can either down-convert to what your TV can handle, 480 lines for most current plasma TV's 576 lines for your bog standard TV, or buy a native HDTV and watch in full resolution.
BexTech is right and it gets worse, I have been following the development of picture technology over the past few years and, as a consumer, have spent many hours examining every possible type of technology and I can only come to the conclusion that plasma merits a "nice try!" award at best.
Even a plasma that is capable of meeting the potential HD formats is no match for a decent projector, scaler and screen. I haven't seen a single plasma (I admit, I have not seen them all) that stands up to close scrutiny in comparison to a lot of the technology available. I still see traces of colour banding on flesh, I am still not impressed with the definition in dark areas of plasma screens (it is far better than it was, but I still don't see true blacks) and the risk of screen burn and lowering of brightness as the panel gets older is not outweighed by the (obviously) perfect geometry and convergence.
Plasma was a massive step forward in the convenience stakes and the manufacturers are working hard to get it into the quality stakes, but in my humble opinion, it ain't quite there.
Now, I would not be critical of anybody buying a plasma if they bought it for the right reasons; it's sexy, it's flat, it's convenient and it shows a good picture. Everybody is entitled to spend their money how they want. I just think expecting a plasma to give you a great picture is expecting a bit too much. In saying that, you have to compare apples with apples, a true HD plasma picture will, of course, kick a standard def picture on a normal TV into orbit just because of what it is.
Well, that's a good point. The only thing I would say is that HD will get you to accept dross that is a visual feast. A lot of "blockbuster" films released over the past few years have had terrible storylines. I could watch films such as Speed loads of times, it is a poor film, but the 5.1 sound is superb. And there are loads of films where the "special effects", sound mix and cinematography have hidden a worse than average plot. The Fifth Element was a feast for the eyes and ears and, to its credit, there was some good acting, but not much else.
However, Eastenders in HD? I understand JasonW, I understand
Mart.Stokes - you persuaded me not to buy a plasma - many thanks - I will wait for a plasma HDTV to become a reasonabel price then buy one that will cope with HDTV.
Have they agreed the standard for HDTV in Europe yet? Just hope it is not lower than that in the States - otherwise lots of people are going to be unhappy.
What we will get will be the same, although the USA use P30 for 720 and I60 for 1080, the EBU wants to start with 720P50, and then 1080P50 when possible, as you can see this will be better than the USA, but the USA could improve theirs too, if they wished.
P - Progressive
I - Interlaced
http://www.ebu.ch/trev_home.html
The thought almost makes me want to weep with joy
If you are not used to visiting such shows, you will be blown away by the quality of some of the pictures on show.
I know this thread is in slightly the wrong place, but it would be nice for you guys (who aren't big into Home Cinema) to see what you may be missing and judge the products for yourselves (don't blame me if you come back with an £8000 projector and your wife/husban kicks you out!).
with HD-D5 being the most wide spread pro deck and HD-Cam coming in at no.2
The states require anything made here (that they pay towards) be made in HD so 1080 24P is a happy medium.
Not with an absolute guarantee, no. If, say, 1080 becomes the standard and you have a 720 display and your HD receiver "box" can be set up to put out a 720 picture then it is always going to be at the back of your mind that the 720 picture could be better because 1080 is available.
720 display devices are widely available (and starting to be cheaper all the while), 1080 is currently a rare animal.
As I have said many times, now is not a good time to buy a telly. If you have to buy then buy a 720 device with a digital input that will later allow pixel to pixel digital mapping (the source device outputs a pixel in a certain position and it is displayed in that position). All devices other than 720 and 1080 will end up being a compromise (a 720 picture would need to be scaled up to meet 768, for example, you are adding lines that aren't actually there in the original source).
The unknown point is what outputs a new HD decoder will have - will it offer analog component and HDMI. If it turns out to just be HDMI you can count the number of compatible devices available int he UK today probably on your hands. If they offer component as well it is a slightly larger number but not great look carefully.
martin - I agree totally with your view of plasma vs projectors BUT and it is a big but I think you have to decide what you are after. A projector is not a TV it is trying to achieve a true cinema experience you need darked lights etc and you joke about coming back with an £8,000 projector you forgot to mention that a top quality screen could set you back several thousand pounds as well and if you have spent that much on the visuals you probably want to spend a similar amount on speakers - it soon ads up.
On the other hand a plasma screen is a very good large TV replacement it can be watched in normal ambient light (though lower is better). So it really depends what you want.
This topic started out as "are we ready for HD" the answer is very few people are but don't tell them as Sky need veryone of the people who have plasmas which are not really HD compatible to buy a HD box as well as the 10% who really do have HD displays.
What is shocking is that int he first generation of Plasma screens onlt the 50" screens were 720p resolutions (there are no 1080p resolution plasmas yet but they are coming real soon). As the second and thrird generation screens came along two things happened the market segmented into that aimed at the US/Japanese/Australia market where HD was needed and those aimed a Europe where is wasn't. If you look at the current ranges of plasma screens there are more Standard Definition ones still than HD ones and even the high end manufacturers, Panasonic comes to mind, now offer a SD plasma - beacuse it competes and most consumers of big TVs buy on price not on quality.
The reality is that Sky need to decide what they are doing and get boxes in production because they need to start educating the public about HD via the retailers so that people who are buying plasmas today (and they will in their droves in the run up to Christmas) aren't severly annoyed when they discover they have been sold old technology. Of course this also requires that retailers realise what is going on and get their staff to start upselling HD capability.
The reality is that when Sky launches its HD service you will need a new digibox (hopefully there will be a hard disk option); a subscription to their HD service and a screen capable of displaying the HD image.
There will be a huge amount of disinformation presented over what will and will not be compatible and the reality is that until Sky say what they are going to do we won't know what will be compatible or not.
Though I suspect if you buy a top of the range pioneer plasma with digital tuner and HDMI input it is unlikely to not be compatible.
Of course this is why the EBU want Europe to go for 720p even though the only HD broadcaster is delivering 1080i.
As you say there are very few native 1080i screens in Europe - and inherently an interlaced screen means a conventional tube based screen or projector. All plasma / DLP / LCD etc screens are progressive scanned and if we end up with 1080i the screen will have to convert to progressive (a not trivial and expensive exercise).
Similarly if you start with a 1080i input and you are going to down convert it to 720p for a 1280x720 screen it is a complicated endevour but you will at least be driving your screen at its maximum caperbilities and having done this the quality can be amazing.
Overall now is a difficult time to upgrade we don't know what we need for the upcoming HD service and I suspect that unless you buy at the very top of the market there is a chance you will not have 100% compatibility.
Hopefully when Sky put the specification out to tender for their new digiboxes they will also let us in general know what they have decided so that these decisions will be easier.
With regard to ' new digibox (hopefully there will be a hard disk option)' - I for one will not buy one without sky+ facilities - for all its irritating minor problems it is still far better, and easier to use, than a VCR
Yes, I forget that not everybody is an A/V geek and not everybody shares my enthusiasm (or overdraft!).
I went from one extreme to the other, I should have stopped in the middle and pointed to other "TV" technologies, such as DLP. Which, in my opinion, is still superior to plasma. I come from an age where people had many thousands of pounds worth of Dolby Digital sound equipment but still sat in front of a 29" 4:3 Sony!!!! :eek: The picture market is starting to catch up and I would hate anybody to spend good money on a technology that seems good on the surface, but fails to live up to the quality offered by, sometimes, cheaper options. You don't need to be an A/V geek to want to get the best bang for your bucks.
It's going to be an interesting couple of years. Like I said in another thread; the World Cup 2006 is going to be the big selling point for HD, IF Sky can be ready in time.
Of course that is assuming that the BBC and ITV adopt the same standards as SKY choose and not as I expect many of the executives may consider as "asserting their independence" by going a different route.
After all they are very unlikely to sit by and let SKY show HD world cup footy after spending millions on the contracts themselves:)
I'm not convinced on this point. A 1080 input, downscaled to 720 cannot be as "good" as a 720 source displayed at 720 (not that you are not saying that). I admit that the results can be amazing, but can only come close to a 720 -> 720 set-up (you will notice I am avoiding the I vs. P part of this on purpose, to avoid the complexity that adds to the discussion). It wouldn't be so bad if we were dealing with exact multiples and a factor of 1.5 ain't bad (better than 720 upscaling to 768). But to downscale 1080 to 720 means that you will have to chuck something away or process adjacent lines and create a compromise line every so often.
Isn't it amazing how much expensive processing goes on to deal with poor and incompatible sources?
Mmh, I had assumed that BBC and ITV would fall in line with Sky and would "transmit" on Sky's HD offering (as they do at the moment with standard TV). I'm sorry to say that I believe Sky are a force that cannot be ignored.
I do not believe that 2006 will see a mass deployment of HD and the majority of people will still be watching in standard PAL. But I see that the World Cup will act as a showcase to entice people.
Going back to your plasma/projector debate - I like the projector system for watching a big game - however it is not feasible for normal viewing as it needs virtual darkness to display at its best, which is not the normal viewers conditions at home